Chapter 11 announced

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

But you've also said ... other parents knew / suspected ... other leaders "volunteer" leaders knew / suspected ... 

That's really the issue here.  Directly the SM is to blame.  He's the direct action.  Secondly others that visually saw hints / behaviors that abuse was happening.  Thirdly, probably where you were attending / structure and even your own family.  The issue is whether BSA has issolated liability separate from the whole of society before everyone including society understood and created laws and expectations to stop.  

The term, "it happened on your watch" seems most apt.

If the whole of society is to blame and liable for everything culturally "winked at" that then manifests in isolated cases - families, churches, youth organizations, schools, and, etc. - thereby exonerating the overseeing entities who specifically winked at specific incidents that occurred while they were stewarding children, we've entered the twilight zone. If only perpetrators/the direct actors are responsible, we are in a world of hurt. Well, that was stupid. We already are. 

To be concise, the BSA is not more to blame than the whole of society? [shaking head wildly] I'm going back to the periderm against which I was previously bashing my noggin. Also, let's reinstitute dodgeball. Only those whipping the red rubber projectile are liable, so it's all good. (Don't ban me, please. I'm not actually talking about dodgeball...)

I don't know or have corroboration for what was told to me by someone 40+ years after the fact. This person said her father knew. I literally asked to speak with him and they declined to give me the opportunity. I never spoke with the other Scouters who MUST have known. I think this is both what I said and implied. If I projected certainty, I was in error and apologize.

Edited March 12, 2021 by ThenNow

[ThenNow]

22 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Taking your 11,000 figure over 30 years, what is the percentage of cases based on total youth membership in that thirty years.  Very, very low. 

This was raised above, but I don't know how to show the link to the poster, MYCVAStory.

Unless the YPT absolutely locked in during the last decade plus, you can't take that 11,000 as gospel. All data indicates child sexual abuse by men against boys is reported at least 10 years later than for girls abused by men. For most men, it's well into their 30's. For me, I was 41.

Exhibit 1 at Page 3 of the Claims Data shows the dramatic declination of claims (as filed in this case only) in recent years. If it the YTP began working like a finely oiled machine or if the reports have not yet surfaced is the question. Only time will tell and that's why there is a future claimants committee, as I understand it.

Edited March 12, 2021 by ThenNow

[ThenNow]

I know this is probably only for me, but I was feeling like I have been going too fast and realized I said my the abuse was at 10. That is wrong. It was 11. I had my birthday while at Summer Camp. Apologies.

Edited March 12, 2021 by ThenNow

[skeptic]

I am not a statistician, but I do see an apparent drop in reported cases in more recent decades on the offered chart.  Still too high, yes.  But, is the lower amount due to membership loss, or due to better YP overall?  Again, nothing is perfect or foolproof.  We are back to the question, should BSA or youth sports, or any other youth connected group be disbanded and run out of town due to miscreants that did not get caught  and so on.  How about the "Me Too" possible victims?  What makes it apparently okay to look the other way in some cases, but try to ruin groups or people in others?  Again, I know there is no answer, because we are all fallible and live in an often nasty or oblivious society.

The charts for councils seems to indicate ours had 86 cases.  In how long?  I know of a half dozen since I have been in the council.  But that is not normally info that is well known.  At least one known perpetrator dates to the thirties or earlier.  Another who died in prison i think, never focused on boys, but rather females, including his own family.  Are all the abuse claims "sexual", or do they include in theory psychological or physical abuse, other than sexual?  If an adult yells at a youth in frustration, and perhaps uses less than appropriate language, is that abuse also included?  What if they then actually apologized?  So many facets that we do not know, or cannot know.

 

[ThenNow]

7 minutes ago, skeptic said:

The charts for councils seems to indicate ours had 86 cases.  In how long? 

That data hasn't and probably won't be released from the data room, since it's directly connected to individual claims. This is my understanding. Same with attaching specific locations to CO's with similar names. There are multiple variations of potentially the same entity - St. John's, St. John, Saint John's, St. John's School, St. John Parish, and etc. I tried to find the city and state for some with no success with inquiries to the Key Master. There, I go again. 

[David CO]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

The just released article about youth sports makes BSA look like angels.  Should they too be wiped off the map?  

There is a big difference between youth sports and scouting.  If a private baseball program gets wiped off the map, the YMCA or Park District can fill the void.  Baseball is not uniquely tied to just one organization.  The boys will still get to play baseball.  

Many people feel that BSA is unique and irreplaceable.  Wipe out BSA, and scouting is gone forever.  I disagree, but I know many people feel that way.

No matter what happens, I don't think WOSM is going to let go of the American market.

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by David CO

[ThenNow]

24 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Are all the abuse claims "sexual", or do they include in theory psychological or physical abuse, other than sexual?

From the Claims Data Summary, P1:

"Summary of Sexual Abuse Claims in Chapter 11 Cases of Boy Scouts of America There are approximately 101,135sexual abuse claims filed. Of those claims, the Tort Claimants’ Committee estimates that there are approximately 83,807 unique claims if the amended and superseded and multiple claims filed on account of the same survivor are removed. The summary of sexual abuse claims below uses the set of 83,807 of claim for purposes of claims summary below."

[CynicalScouter]

The video of last night's TCC call is online.

I just want to bring up one thing and this is a placeholder of sorts.

In a very, very short amount of time the reality is going to set in that local councils ARE in fact going to have to chip in and pay for this.

The TCC made it clear they are looking at four sources of money for this

1. BSA national (and its insurers)
2. Local Councils (and their insurers)
3. Chartered Organizations (and presumably their insurers)
4. Individual abusers.

When that happens, I wonder how much of the anger is going to be directed at

1. National for, in effect, lying (or at least not being fully honest) about what councils and COs were on the hook for.
2. Councils for even as late as today assuring people there was/is no way the councils are going to have to pay a dime and that any money they give to their local council will remain local. I will give my Council Key-3 all the credit in the world here: they've made it clear for MONTHS that the Council is going to have to pay SOMETHING, even if they are not sure exactly how much.
3. Lawyers
4. Abuse victims
5. Chartered Organizations

[mrjohns2]

3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

The TCC made it clear they are looking at four sources of money for this

That is their side of the argument. You keep acting like there is nothing to be decided. Have you ever seen a court proceeding? Each side makes an argument for the moon. In the end, few get all. 

[ThenNow]

4 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

When that happens, I wonder how much of the anger is going to be directed at

1. National for, in effect, lying (or at least not being fully honest) about what councils and COs were on the hook for.
2. Councils for even as late as today assuring people there was/is no way the councils are going to have to pay a dime and that any money they give to their local council will remain local. I will give my Council Key-3 all the credit in the world here: they've made it clear for MONTHS that the Council is going to have to pay SOMETHING, even if they are not sure exactly how much.
3. Lawyers
4. Abuse victims
5. Chartered Organizations

Wild shot at rank and yank: Lawyers, National, Abuse Victims, Councils, CO's.

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Have you ever seen a court proceeding?

I've worked as a paralegal, court staffer, or judicial system employee for 30 years.

I can read the writing on the wall in a civil case.

To borrow a phrase: It's all over but the screaming.

[ThenNow]

3 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

That is their side of the argument. You keep acting like there is nothing to be decided. Have you ever seen a court proceeding? Each side makes an argument for the moon. In the end, few get all. 

Yes. Many. Most court proceedings don't have one side who can step outside the process and fire 10,000+ heat seeking missiles (complaints) at multiple non-party targets with billions of dollars at viable risk in the event the proceeding goes completely sideways. "We're launching. You wanna come in here and work on this or no? You pick."

[CynicalScouter]

2 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

"We're launching. You wanna come in here and work on this or no? You pick."

Right. There's already plans to sue not only Local Councils but Chartered Organizations as well. Such suits are being filed but the bankruptcy court proceeding stays those suits for now.

I really, really don't think people really grasp exactly how screwed BSA is right now. Fortunately for my Council our Council President is an attorney who as early as last year saw where this was heading and I think really laid it out as best as he could that BSA's screwed and the council's not going to be able to walk out of this without paying SOMETHING.

I don't think even he fathomed how insulting the BSA offer would be. Our next Council board meeting is next week and I'll find out the details after. But my district folks already know that my troop doesn't expect to survive this and they are operating similarly that BSA National really can't be believed or trusted at this point.

[MattR]

@skeptic, I'm going to pick on one of your posts a bit. Please bear with me for a bit.

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

Taking your 11,000 figure over 30 years, what is the percentage of cases based on total youth membership in that thirty years. 

That's about one sexual abuse per day. Given that the G2SS won't even let scouts use electric screwdrivers it's hard for me to see how one sexual abuse per day is acceptable.

 

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

How responsible is the secondary overseer when the actual perpetrator purposely avoids the barriers? 

How responsible is the secondary overseer if they know their barriers are being avoided?

 

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

Meanwhile, we continue to look the other way when people in power or with money do things as bad, or far worse.  

Far worse then child rape? The only thing that fits that category is murder.

 

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

Please explain to me how are we ever going to make that number zero?  [,,,,] Do any of you have any answers? 

I think this is your real question. First, we're never going to make that number zero. But one per week is a lot better and one per month is even better still. So maybe a better question is what does it take to reduce that number? It starts by looking very closely at every one of those 11,000 cases and start looking for commonalities as to how the barriers were avoided. Pick the low hanging fruit and work on that first. It's not a lot different than how Toyota became so good at quality.

If you compare that approach of always pushing towards zero compared to the current approach of throwing training over the wall for the units and assuming it's the greatest system there is, there's a really big change in the mindset. Now, given that Toyota still makes higher quality cars than most everyone else, they can charge a premium for that, and they started working on this about the same time the sexual abuse exploded in the 60's, it implies that a) there is no simple solution, b) this takes a long time and a mindset of constant improvement, and c) that is the only way to create a system that everyone else wants to emulate and sign their kids up for.

 

 

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, MattR said:

the current approach of throwing training over the wall for the units and assuming it's the greatest system there is, there's a really big change in the mindset.

I couldn't agree more. I've said that my own theory is that you need heads on pikes (read: people who are clearly and openly removed from the program for YPT failures) and/or Clery Act type reporting in which Councils have to report YPT violations each year and the results. That second part can be anonymous or aggregated, but as it is, I have never, ever, EVER seen ANYONE reprimanded, reviewed, or in any way disciplined for YPT violations.

Either my district and council have attained YPT perfection or it's getting buried/ignored.