Chapter 11 announced

[ThenNow]

2 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

 At University of Scouting 2 years ago I sat and listened to Michael Surbaugh explain how the files BSA kept were the only reason lawsuits existed because a paper trail was there.  

Wow. They were shoveling it deep and wide with a mining front loader.

4 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Looking at the documents provided last night, Circle 10 has 504 claims.  The AIS map thing doesnt even come close to reflecting those numbers, so I kind of wonder about its accuracy.

That's just one group of attorneys showing where their clients have claims. I shared it to show the way I was tracking claims while they were being filed up until November 16, 2020, since so many here had no idea of the mounting claims within their Troop or LC. Sorry to be unclear. 

[MattR]

Shoveling deep and wide or just too naive to understand the situation they were in?

BTW, the ais map is not correct. Unfortunately, I noticed that the school my son's pack was in was listed as a CO and it is not on the map. And I checked another database, it is the only school in the US with that name.

[5thGenTexan]

3 minutes ago, MattR said:

Shoveling deep and wide or just too naive to understand the situation they were in?

BTW, the ais map is not correct. Unfortunately, I noticed that the school my son's pack was in was listed as a CO and it is not on the map. And I checked another database, it is the only school in the US with that name.

I think even two years ago if the BSA head honcho gets up and talks about it for 30 minutes to rank and file volunteers they HAD to know what the situation was.  To this day I still hear the talking points from back then.  Either people havent kept up with developments or they have their heads in the sand to avoid any news to the contrary of those talking points.

[ThenNow]

8 minutes ago, MattR said:

Shoveling deep and wide or just too naive to understand the situation they were in?

BTW, the ais map is not correct. Unfortunately, I noticed that the school my son's pack was in was listed as a CO and it is not on the map. And I checked another database, it is the only school in the US with that name.

Very good point. Sorry. They were inaccurate, whether innocently tossing roses or otherwise. 

Again, all I was doing is pointing out that I watched the proliferation of claims, checking to see what was landing on my Troop and in the LC's area. In my case, they were pretty on point. I didn't mean it to be an official anything. It's one of the large attorney groups accused of questionable tactics. I wrongly assumed most put the two together and might flavor with a grain of salt or 100. My bad. Since many were ignorant of any claims of note, this gives some idea of the explosion. I imagine a data entry person in a call center somewhere is plugging them in and misfiring once, twice or...

Edited March 12, 2021 by ThenNow

[CynicalScouter]

21 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

The AIS map thing doesnt even come close to reflecting those numbers, so I kind of wonder about its accuracy.

The AIS map is based on those who have AIS attorneys.

[5thGenTexan]

Has the video of the townhall been posted yet?  

https://www.dropbox.com/s/raga71esknhqb1b/BSA Town Hall 3-11-2021.mp4?dl=0

Just now, CynicalScouter said:

The AIS map is based on those who have AIS attorneys.

Yeah, I dont think I understood what it was initially.

[CynicalScouter]

28 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

My Council has, not recently mind you, but has pushed the rhetoric that they are financially independent of National and we have plenty of money to continue without National at all. 

Looking at the documents provided last night, Circle 10 has 504 claims.

And I will put money on the table that says if you talked to Circle 10 leadership they'd continue to blow "Everthing is Awesome" vibes your way.

For Councils still pushing the "It's all National, we'll be fine. No local money will be forced to be paid." line, I don't really know at this point if it is because the Council leaders are

• naive
• clueless about what peril they are in
• just simply lying to themselves and others or
• being told by National they are OK and believing it to be so

or a combo of some/all of the above.

Edited March 12, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[ThenNow]

9 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

For Councils still pushing the "It's all National, we'll be fine. No local money will be forced to be paid." line, I don't really know at this point if it is because the Council leaders are

• naive
• clueless about what peril they are in
• just simply lying to themselves and others or
• being told by National they are OK and believing it to be so

or a combo of some/all of the above.

With what consideration do they suppose they are buying protection from future lawsuits? That's the logical disconnect I can't reconcile. Someone must see there is a transaction going down and getting something so significant for nothing is like Pollyanna in rose-colored glasses singing, "The Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow," am I right? Dang. I did it again.

Edited March 12, 2021 by ThenNow

[MattR]

13 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

They were inaccurate, whether innocently tossing roses or otherwise. 

No worries. I guess my point was that their main defense evolved from a group of people telling themselves it's fine. The term echo chamber comes to mind. That seems to be a common problem in failing companies and armies.

[yknot]

Just now, MattR said:

No worries. I guess my point was that their main defense evolved from a group of people telling themselves it's fine. The term echo chamber comes to mind. That seems to be a common problem in failing companies and armies.

Especially so in BSA it seems where the top leadership does not appear to have any corporate experience outside scouting. It's a very insular organization warped by its own mythology. 

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

... about tacit consent, aiding and abetting and complicity by virtue of his knowledge at the time of the abuse.  ...

But you've also said ... other parents knew / suspected ... other leaders "volunteer" leaders knew / suspected ... 

That's really the issue here.  Directly the SM is to blame.  He's the direct action.  Secondly others that visually saw hints / behaviors that abuse was happening.  Thirdly, probably where you were attending / structure and even your own family.  The issue is whether BSA has issolated liability separate from the whole of society before everyone including society understood and created laws and expectations to stop.  

You've gone thru hell.  Absolutely.  I 100% recognize that.  The question is who is to blame.  I just don't accept that BSA is more to blame than pretty much the whole of the rest of society.

I recently listened to a news article that helped me understand that there are whole other areas of youth programs where they've yet to come to grips with abuse.  I really thought around year 2000 the country's YP infrastructure had matured.  Apparently, not yet.  We still have a far way to go.  

Edited March 12, 2021 by fred8033

[yknot]

5 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

But you've also said ... other parents knew / suspected ... other leaders "volunteer" leaders knew / suspected ... 

That's really the issue here.  Directly the SM is to blame.  He's the direct action.  Secondly others that visually saw hints / behaviors that abuse was happening.  Thirdly, probably where you were attending / structure and even your own family.  The issue is whether BSA has issolated liability separate from the whole of society before everyone including society understood and created laws and expectations to stop.  

You've gone thru hell.  Absolutely.  I 100% recognize that.  The question is who is to blame.  I just don't accept that BSA is more to blame than pretty much the whole of the rest of society.

I recently listened to a news article that helped me understand that there are whole other areas of youth programs where they've yet to come to grips with abuse.  I really thought around year 2000 the country's YP infrastructure had matured.  Apparently, not yet.  We still have a far way to go.  

I think BSA does bear liability. Certainly over the past 20 years we've learned that the victimization of children is far more insidious than previously understood. But the difference between scouting and youth organizations like sports is that BSA marketed its entire existence as being set on a higher moral plane. Parents might have been more cautious with their children in sports simply because there's no moral code espoused other than good sportsmanship. Coaches and beer are almost synonymous. Parents expected their children to be safer in scouting, because the scouting principals virtually guaranteed that supervising adults would be morally straight. The organization knew this wasn't true, but nowhere along the line did it modify its marketing messages. 

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, yknot said:

I think BSA does bear liability. Certainly over the past 20 years we've learned that the victimization of children is far more insidious than previously understood.

Here's the other aspect. Since 1990, BSA has touted YPT as the be all and end all. Since 1990, there has been over 11,000 victims.

That's a mess. There's BSA's liability right there.

[yknot]

2 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Here's the other aspect. Since 1990, BSA has touted YPT as the be all and end all. Since 1990, there has been over 11,000 victims.

That's a mess. There's BSA's liability right there.

Yes, that too.

[skeptic]

So, let us all agree that any abuse, sexual or other, is not acceptable.  Now, based on the numbers presented, what is the real world likelihood that a youth might be abused, no matter what barriers may be in place?  Taking your 11,000 figure over 30 years, what is the percentage of cases based on total youth membership in that thirty years.  Very, very low.  Yes, even one is too many, but we live in a real world.  Please explain to me how are we ever going to make that number zero?  How responsible is the secondary overseer when the actual perpetrator purposely avoids the barriers?  Do any of you have any answers?  The just released article about youth sports makes BSA look like angels.  Should they too be wiped off the map?  Are the olympic teams being disbanded and nobody will ever compete again?  Does USC shut down its school due to the criminal actions of employees?  And, does the terrible wrong done to the victims in the McMartin fiasco just have no consideration?  We are asking almost the impossible, and I have no idea how that can happen.  Meanwhile, we continue to look the other way when people in power or with money do things as bad, or far worse.