swilliams Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said: With the speed of the courts, don't you feel that this is premature? Having a letter ready is fine to be prepared, but sending it out? I don't know if anyone knows anything. I wonder if the judge would even have a inkling of the timing. If National fails in the summer, it by no means that the LC's fail immediately. I guess you are a cynic, but wow, this seems premature to me. Agree that it’s perhaps premature to send out a letter to parents. I have contacted our SM and CC. We’re setting up a meeting for this weekend so we can start planning out our ‘what ifs’. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 12 minutes ago, ThenNow said: To that end, is your "contingency plan" something others would find applicable to their effort or is it specific to your Council? Just wondering if it can be shared, whether here or via PM. Thinking out loud. The "contingency plan" is pretty straightforward. 1) Life Scouts are going to be, in effect, assigned an ASM mentor. The two of them will ram and jam ASAP whatever is left for Eagle. Given everything discussed here, we are not expecting BSA to be operating much past July 1 and that's out "target date" for all Life Scouts to sit for EBORs. 2) All other scouts and scout parents have been notified that committee leadership as well as our SM believe that BSA will cease operations/liquidate in the next 4-6 months. We will do what we can to keep our Troop operating but that we do not expect to exist past that point. We will do what we can and work with the CO/COR to talk refunds and what can be done. 3) We already gave our District advancement person a heads up and he agrees that he doesn't expect BSA to survive this so he understands. There will be a TON of EBORs to push through other units. BSA's dead, but it isn't fair to scouts to see all their work fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post qwazse Posted March 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 12, 2021 20 minutes ago, BQZip said: 1. What age were you? If he "was waiting" until you were 18, as much as I dislike it/find it distasteful, it was perfectly legal ... I would encourage everyone to not ask @ThenNow to rehash particular circumstances. They can be found by patiently browsing his posts. From what I read, they were far from legal. His claim would have been actionable had he been granted the resilience to act on it. 1 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 11 minutes ago, BQZip said: What SHOULD they do? What additional steps should be taken? How about this: Reporting on all YPT violations and the resulting punishments at a council level. I think something similar to how Congress mandated Clery Act reports that all higher education facilities bust report similar data annually. Quote In 2020, XYZ Council had 14 YPT violations reported, 12 involving sexual assault, 2 failure to maintain two-deep leadership. Of the 12 sexual assaults, 9 resulted in the removal of the adult from the program and an arrest, 2 resulted in the removal of the adult from the program but not arrest (as of the time of this report), and 1 was deemed unfounded but turned over to the police in keeping with YPT policy. Of the 2 failure to maintain two-deep leadership, 1 resulted in the removal of the adult from the program and 1 resulted in an adult taking remedial/refresher YPT If a council starts to cough up numbers saying "we had NO YPT violations in 2021!" you know either a) they reached a state of perfection not know to humankind or b) they are full of crap and not enforcing YPT. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 24 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said: With the speed of the courts, don't you feel that this is premature? I can read the writing on the wall. BSA's dead by summer and/or the COs will start to drop units when they start to get sued. It isn't fair to have scouts within weeks/months of Eagle miss out because of this, and we are giving our parents and scouts a heads up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 30 minutes ago, BQZip said: 1. What age were you? If he "was waiting" until you were 18, as much as I dislike it/find it distasteful, it was perfectly legal 10 at the time of the first instance abuse by my SM. I was turning 11 the next day and it was the night of my birthday-eve, if there is such a thing. I was 17 at the time of the first SE incident I mentioned. 32 minutes ago, BQZip said: 3. NONE of this means I don't care you were abused. I genuinely do and I'm VERY sorry you suffered such abuse. Have the people who committed these acts been held to account? Have they been sued? To be blunt, they should be included with any such lawsuit as they are the proximate cause. You haven't read my exhaustive retelling and that's no fault of yours, though you could. Fine to be blunt. Trust me I don't care. No. I tried 18/19 years ago but I was too late. The SoL's were changed shortly after, but they were prospective. If you read all my posts, my singular interest was putting the SM in prison and wiping out his assets. I was in stasis before 2.18.2020. No where to go with all of this. I was invited to file by repeated calls from the BSA (Mosby, Turley and their attorneys.) I am here in response to a very public, tearful, and virtually gilded hand-delivered invitation. I RSVP'd with relish (not the pickle kind. 38 minutes ago, BQZip said: The question is if BSA and associated entities are legally liable for it and, if so, to what extent. In the situation mentioned here, it was outside of scouting. If you were underage, he'd be personally legally liable, but it was definitely outside his scope as an SE. Not a question and that's the entire point of this thread. I/we are not here because of backyard brawl. The slow train of the legal system is pulling us along. The BSA chartered the train, shoveled coal and passed out tickets. Yeah. I know. The entire point you missed is I was talked about tacit consent, aiding and abetting and complicity by virtue of his knowledge at the time of the abuse. Forgive typos. This made me a little cranky... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swilliams Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: The "contingency plan" is pretty straightforward. 1) Life Scouts are going to be, in effect, assigned an ASM mentor. The two of them will ram and jam ASAP whatever is left for Eagle. Given everything discussed here, we are not expecting BSA to be operating much past July 1 and that's out "target date" for all Life Scouts to sit for EBORs. 2) All other scouts and scout parents have been notified that committee leadership as well as our SM believe that BSA will cease operations/liquidate in the next 4-6 months. We will do what we can to keep our Troop operating but that we do not expect to exist past that point. We will do what we can and work with the CO/COR to talk refunds and what can be done. 3) We already gave our District advancement person a heads up and he agrees that he doesn't expect BSA to survive this so he understands. There will be a TON of EBORs to push through other units. BSA's dead, but it isn't fair to scouts to see all their work fail. If BSA liquidates and ceases to function, do councils have the ability to proceed with the program? Does the program still exist? Of course troops can still get together for activities, and I would hope ours does. But, for example, if my older boy can somehow earn Eagle before BSA shutters and his younger brother wanted to follow, can council or the troop confer Eagle rank without a National organization to recognize it? I don’t know that he would care whether it was “sanctioned” or not. Just a thinking out loud thought. Edited March 12, 2021 by swilliams Typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, swilliams said: If BSA liquidates and ceases to function, do councils have the ability to proceed with the program? No. Congress gave Boy Scouts of America (the corporate entity, National if you will) the exclusive rights to the "emblems, badges, marks, and words" of Boy Scouts of America. 36 U.S. Code § 30905. A bankruptcy doesn't repeal that statute. So no, the Local Councils could not continue with anything like that. I'd suspect you'd see something like the Baden-Powell Service Association with things that look/feel similar but that do not include "Bear" "Bobcat" "Eagle Scout", etc. Edited March 12, 2021 by CynicalScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 32 minutes ago, BQZip said: What SHOULD they do? What additional steps should be taken? I'm not naive. Pedophiles (especially ones who are uncaught) target youth organizations like schools, scouts, churches, etc. If YPT is insufficient, what should be changed? The only specific was releasing the names of everyone on the volunteer ban list. I took a look at other settlements and a couple of areas we may see changes (just a guess): So, imagine opening up scouting.org ... there may be a big button that states report abuse. The other areas I have seen is requirements for 0 tolerance policies. If a youth or adult violates any aspect of YPT and its confirmed, they are out, banned and don't be surprised if made public. The third is more public openness about policies and violations that have been reported. These are some of the non monetary changes I have seen in lawsuits. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 49 minutes ago, swilliams said: Agree that it’s perhaps premature to send out a letter to parents. I have contacted our SM and CC. We’re setting up a meeting for this weekend so we can start planning out our ‘what ifs’. For me, we are at too many what ifs to really plan. My primary concerns are: - Philmont ... I have 2 crews going ... will that happen and is their money safe? - Summary Camp ... will my camp be pulled by this summer and are our deposits safe. I think, for now, both are safe for this summer so we move on. The summer of 2022, on the other hand .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 44 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: Life Scouts are going to be, in effect, assigned an ASM mentor. The two of them will ram and jam ASAP whatever is left for Eagle. I've been seeing more panic parents pushing Eagle recently ... I wonder if this is in their mind as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swilliams Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said: For me, we are at too many what ifs to really plan. My primary concerns are: - Philmont ... I have 2 crews going ... will that happen and is their money safe? - Summary Camp ... will my camp be pulled by this summer and are our deposits safe. I think, for now, both are safe for this summer so we move on. The summer of 2022, on the other hand .... This is kind of what I mean by ‘what ifs’. It’s too soon to tell what exactly will happen, but it’s not too soon to come up with a list of questions we’d like to try and find answers to. From the provided list, our council has a couple hundred cases. There’s going to be SOME kind of major change happening, regardless of what form it takes. Troop issues, too, like what happens to Troop property in the event BSA ceases to exist? Trailers, canoes, camping equipment, any cash in the bank, etc. Can another organization be formed to purchase our summer camp if council is disbanded? Outside our Troop’s control, what happens to the camps that our council runs, but doesn’t own? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 34 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: No. Congress gave Boy Scouts of America (the corporate entity, National if you will) the exclusive rights to the "emblems, badges, marks, and words" of Boy Scouts of America. 36 U.S. Code § 30905. A bankruptcy doesn't repeal that statute. So no, the Local Councils could not continue with anything like that. I'd suspect you'd see something like the Baden-Powell Service Association with things that look/feel similar but that do not include "Bear" "Bobcat" "Eagle Scout", etc. Speaking of which, has the 2021 BSA Report to the Nation been delivered to Congress? 36 U.S. Code § 30908 Annual Report Not later than April 1 of each year, the corporation shall submit a report to Congress on the activities of the corporation during the prior calendar year. Recall last year 2020 https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2020/02/28/these-13-outstanding-scouts-will-deliver-the-bsas-report-to-the-nation/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thGenTexan Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 5 hours ago, ThenNow said: Through the last two years, have you guys received any trickle down news or tactical planning from above? This whole operation, as illustrated by the non-plan Plan - little detail, no commitment from LC's, completely misreading or ignoring the other side's likely reaction -appears to lack any sophisticated risk management/tiered A, B, C contingency planning. Am I wrong? They have high powered big law with them so I don't get it. From a purely survival and business planning standpoint, it amazes me if they weren't "gaming this out" for a year or more. At University of Scouting 2 years ago I sat and listened to Michael Surbaugh explain how the files BSA kept were the only reason lawsuits existed because a paper trail was there. My Council has, not recently mind you, but has pushed the rhetoric that they are financially independent of National and we have plenty of money to continue without National at all. Whenever I bring anything up regarding what might happen I am fed this line by the DE and other leaders in my Pack and the Troop, as well as other District folks. Looking at the documents provided last night, Circle 10 has 504 claims. The AIS map thing doesnt even come close to reflecting those numbers, so I kind of wonder about its accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattR Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 I started replying here but realized it belonged in the thread I already split off about YP/Quality. I'd suggest, to keep this thread focused, if people want to talk about how to do scouting after ch 11 they start a new thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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