Chapter 11 announced

[elitts]

18 hours ago, qwazse said:

Eventually, as I said earlier, it will be reasonable to sue the institution of the family as a whole for not protecting our citizens completely.

I keep waiting for this to happen actually.  I assume that at some point some wealthy family will have a child get abused and they'll opt not to report it.  Then the same abuser will harm another person and the 2nd victim's family (or rather the family's attorney) will decide to sue the wealthy family for their failure to "protect society" by reporting the abuser to the police.

[scotteg83]

On 2/20/2020 at 9:39 AM, ValleyBoy said:

If the local councils get pulled into the Chapter 11 some such as my local council might be able to survive.   The reason I say this is that my local council only owns the local council office building.  The two camp properties that the council uses are not owned by the council.  The main camp is leased from the Army Corp of Engineers and the other older camp property is in a trust that cannot be sold and would revert to the local community only if the scouts abandoned the property. 

My council has been talking about getting one of their camps sold to a land trust, which would help this issue if it happens.

[elitts]

6 minutes ago, scotteg83 said:

My council has been talking about getting one of their camps sold to a land trust, which would help this issue if it happens.

I would hope that ALL councils are looking into this.  Having assets is what makes them targets for lawsuits.  Since they don't have actual "Creditors" at this moment, just people who've filed suits against them, I'd think this would be the time to divest.

[scotteg83]

19 hours ago, qwazse said:

That's not how the WOSM works ... I bet it will be concerned when sales of the world-crest drop.

Organizations who don't have a congressional charter aren't obligated to report their membership statistics publicly. They have nice web pages, but are shy on stats. They do talk the YP talk.

But, let's not be so optimistic. A sinking tide grounds all boats. The massive liners first, then the smaller ones, down to the last dingy. One claim against an independent scouting organization, just one, will make it as much a target for punitive damages ... more so because they should have "learned" from our supposedly failed practices.

Eventually, as I said earlier, it will be reasonable to sue the institution of the family as a whole for not protecting our citizens completely.

I believe the Girl Scouts of USA also had to put out a statement this week stating they are NOT part of Scouts BSA, and NOT having youth protection issues, and NOT claiming bankruptcy.   Which proves to the point, one sinking tide grounds all boats.  Every Scouting origination in the USA is effected by this.  General public cannot tell the difference between Scouting orgs, unless they have first hand experience.

[ValleyBoy]

25 minutes ago, scotteg83 said:

My council has been talking about getting one of their camps sold to a land trust, which would help this issue if it happens.

The older camp was placed in a trust around 100 years ago.  Council sold another camp before leasing the Corp of Engineers property around 20 years ago.  I believe the lease is for 50 years.

[FireStone]

On 2/20/2020 at 3:36 PM, codger said:

Frankly, I am very frustrated that the "natural" response from 90% of the commentators, Scouts, victims and Scouting volunteers is to automatically assert that the natural remedy to heinous crimes of abuse committed by, in some cases, people that are dead or long since removed from their positions within Scouting, is to take money from todays' innocent children and volunteers and give it to the victims...

I think the logic is that this should have happened long ago, so if this process results in the BSA losing everything than it was just delayed, in essence taking something away from today's scouts and scouters that should have been gone long ago if these lawsuits had occurred back when they should have.

On 2/20/2020 at 3:36 PM, codger said:

...Well, I never abused anyone, and I resent being asked through ever-increasing financial demands of the organization to subsidize bad actors of the past. 

I think that if we see another dues increase, it will be really hard for anyone to believe that it's not going to be used for lawsuit settlements. Whether that is true or not, it doesn't matter. The optics of this situation have always been the most challenging and potentially harmful part of the whole thing for the BSA. The more that it looks like current members are being hit repeatedly for funds to pay for the abuses of the past, the more we will start to see families leaving.

Even for me it would take some serious thought and soul-searching to decide whether or not to stick with the BSA if they hit us with another dues increase. It's worth some added cost to me to continue scouting for my kids, but everyone has their limits. At some point if dues keep going up and it feels more and more like it's just going to cover legal expenses, I'll have a hard time continuing to support that.

[ParkMan]

31 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Even for me it would take some serious thought and soul-searching to decide whether or not to stick with the BSA if they hit us with another dues increase. It's worth some added cost to me to continue scouting for my kids, but everyone has their limits. At some point if dues keep going up and it feels more and more like it's just going to cover legal expenses, I'll have a hard time continuing to support that.

I concur.  Every one of these big increases invite yet another family conversation of - "do you want to continue in Scouting?".  Given our general membership issues today, this will have consequences. 

I am not sure how much longer I'd continue with ever increasing dues that are going solely to pay for lawsuit settlements.

[HashTagScouts]

On 2/21/2020 at 10:52 AM, elitts said:

I would hope that ALL councils are looking into this.  Having assets is what makes them targets for lawsuits.  Since they don't have actual "Creditors" at this moment, just people who've filed suits against them, I'd think this would be the time to divest.

The problem with doing it now, is going to be the optics.  You can imagine the PR field day for attorneys when they see that the date the transaction occurred was within a short time of the national org filing Ch 11.  

[yknot]

3 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

The problem with doing it now, is going to be the optics.  You can imagine the PR field day for attorneys when they see that the date the transaction occurred was within a short time of the national org filing Ch 11.  

The bigger issue is that if it is a Council that is involved in a possible case, the bankruptcy judge may have some ability to go back and review such efforts to hide or preserve assets. Similar to what happens during a medicaid review with an elderly relative who might have tried to gift assets to family members too close to claiming eligibility. 

[HashTagScouts]

2 hours ago, yknot said:

The bigger issue is that if it is a Council that is involved in a possible case, the bankruptcy judge may have some ability to go back and review such efforts to hide or preserve assets. Similar to what happens during a medicaid review with an elderly relative who might have tried to gift assets to family members too close to claiming eligibility. 

Exactly.  Any lawyer is going to make that a significant point that somehow the council chose now, this event, as the opportunity that they are trying to hide assets.  

My understandings from what I have seen posted on social media is that the attorneys involved with the Abused in Scouting organization are focused on liquidating the BSA, and that includes any assets held by Councils.  I've seen comments on their SM over and over that "the world doesn't need the BSA", etc. My interpretation is that they believe that everyone involved in Scouting in the past, as well as those today, are all implicitly tied together in allowing any cover-up of abuse (in other words, if we wore/wear the uniform, the National/Council/Unit separation is insignificant).  I am not saying I agree with that point of view, but I can understand why they will attempt to argue that Chapter 11 is not sufficient and come after Councils and COs.   

[fred8033]

3 hours ago, FireStone said:

I think the logic is that this should have happened long ago, so if this process results in the BSA losing everything than it was just delayed, in essence taking something away from today's scouts and scouters that should have been gone long ago if these lawsuits had occurred back when they should have.

Your representation and reasoning is correct.  And I suspect the legal situations follow your reasoning.   Like many, I'm frustrated because the connection chain does not exist.  The simple fact is many of these cases were not pursued back in the time when it happened.  Not by parents, police or society.  Also, often the cases could not have been pursued.  Laws were different.  Society were different.  Infrastructure was different.  Mandatory reporting was not a concept.  Extended automatic data analysis was not possible. This is only possible by applying today's environment to a past world that just doesn't exist anymore.  Now, I know the law is different, but it's just not fair.  

 

[Jameson76]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Your representation and reasoning is correct.  And I suspect the legal situations follow your reasoning.  exist.  The simple fact is many of these cases were not pursued back in the time when it happened.  Not by parents, police or society. 

For that reason I have some trouble with some of the cases being pursued as noted above and as stated in the new reports.  Many were in fact never reported to family, police, councils.  Sadly that is the truth.

Did this happen, we have to believe the account of the abused.  Is the Scout leader still alive?  If so pursue criminal charges.  Does the abused person deserve counseling and support, absolutely and that does appear to be happening if media reports and BSA National releases are accurate.  Does this make the abused one eligible to get a large cash settlement?  Not sure about that.  Many factors are in play.

If the BSA and the local council was aware and did not prosecute, maybe.  But as many of these incidents show, some were reported but the authorities did not prosecute.  It is incredibly hard to look back 40 to 50 years and make the case that it was handled incorrectly based on 2020 standards.

 

1 hour ago, HashTagScouts said:

Exactly.  Any lawyer is going to make that a significant point that somehow the council chose now, this event, as the opportunity that they are trying to hide assets.  

My understandings from what I have seen posted on social media is that the attorneys involved with the Abused in Scouting organization are focused on liquidating the BSA, and that includes any assets held by Councils.  I've seen comments on their SM over and over that "the world doesn't need the BSA", etc. My interpretation is that they believe that everyone involved in Scouting in the past, as well as those today, are all implicitly tied together in allowing any cover-up of abuse (in other words, if we wore/wear the uniform, the National/Council/Unit separation is insignificant).  I am not saying I agree with that point of view, but I can understand why they will attempt to argue that Chapter 11 is not sufficient and come after Councils and COs.   

There is the actual rub right there, one group wants nothing more than to dismantle and sell of the valuables of the 100+ year old organization for profit and one group really wants to continue the mission.  

As we have all noted, this will not and cannot end well.

[RememberSchiff]

2/24/2020:  U.S. Trustee has requested to hold a Section 341(a) meeting on April 15.

" The U.S. trustee plays a major role in monitoring the progress of a chapter 11 case and supervising its administration. The U.S. trustee is responsible for monitoring the debtor in possession's operation of the business and the submission of operating reports and fees. Additionally, the U.S. trustee monitors applications for compensation and reimbursement by professionals, plans and disclosure statements filed with the court, and creditors' committees. The U.S. trustee conducts a meeting of the creditors, often referred to as the "section 341 meeting," in a chapter 11 case. 11 U.S.C. § 341. The U.S. trustee and creditors may question the debtor under oath at the section 341 meeting concerning the debtor's acts, conduct, property, and the administration of the case."

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/801214_101.pdf

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/802670_110.pdf

https://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/bankruptcy/bankruptcy-basics/chapter-11-bankruptcy-basics#:~:text=The U.S. trustee conducts a,in a chapter 11 case.&text=The U.S. trustee and creditors,the administration of the case.

https://cases.omniagentsolutions.com/documents?clientid=CsgAAncz%2b6Yclmvv9%2fq5CGybTGevZSjdVimQq9zQutqmTPHesk4PZDyfOOLxIiIwZjXomPlMZCo%3d&tagid=1153

Edited February 27, 2020 by RememberSchiff
Added notification email from Clerk of Court

[walk in the woods]

Others may have already posted this but it came across my news feed today.  There's more than land at stake, https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/02/27/boy-scouts-chapter-11-bankruptcy-rockwell-paintings-sexual-abuse-victims/4820331002/.  

[Eagle1993]

What was interesting, is that we never placed a value on those paintings in our filings … just listed that we have them.  I would be in favor of selling them if it helps protect some camps from sales.  

What I found interesting, is that for the first time I have read, an attorney representing victims said something could be protected.  He likened it a bit to not touching "cherished religious relics".  In terms of scouting, my "cherished religious relic" would be my summer camp I went to as a youth .. or perhaps Philmont … not a painting.  Perhaps those outside the organization don't understand scouting if they think paintings should be protected but land disposed of.

Quote

 

Jeff Anderson, an attorney representing victims of sexual abuse who are seeking compensation from the Boy Scouts, said it's too early to say whether the creditors will pursue a liquidation of the art.

"I think it will depend upon how candid the Boy Scouts of America are," he said, calling on the organization to reveal what he alleged was the full scope of sexual abuse that occurred over the last several decades. "If they’re looking to come clean ... then they will have no problem, I’m pretty confident, preserving things like that."

In previous bankruptcies involving Catholic dioceses, abuse victims did not pursue a liquidation of cherished religious relics, Anderson said.

"We said that's off-limits completely," said Anderson, who represented victims in some of those Catholic church cases. 

But "these," he said, referring to the Rockwell paintings, "we could not say are automatically off-limits."