Chapter 11 announced

[David CO]

1 minute ago, ParkMan said:

BPSA It was started in the US in 2006 and in 2016 had 1,600 members.

This is exactly my point.

But they are not affiliated with WOSM.  I think WOSM recognition would make a big difference.  

[ParkMan]

3 minutes ago, David CO said:

But they are not affiliated with WOSM.  I think WOSM recognition would make a big difference.  

I'm skeptical.  In my 10 years of recruiting kids, never once have I heard - are you a member of WOSM?

You hear lots of "I couldn't wait for my son to be a Scout like I was."  "I remember when I earned my Eagle", "I was on Summer Camp staff and loved it.", "I was very active in the OA."

[JoeBob]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

Make Boy Scouts Great Again

May I adjust your wording?  Make American Boy Scouts Great Again.

MABSGA!

[qwazse]

6 minutes ago, David CO said:

Has the WOSM made any public statement about the BSA bankruptcy?  

That's not how the WOSM works ... I bet it will be concerned when sales of the world-crest drop.

3 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

BPSA It was started in the US in 2006 and in 2016 had 1,600 members.

This is exactly my point.

Organizations who don't have a congressional charter aren't obligated to report their membership statistics publicly. They have nice web pages, but are shy on stats. They do talk the YP talk.

But, let's not be so optimistic. A sinking tide grounds all boats. The massive liners first, then the smaller ones, down to the last dingy. One claim against an independent scouting organization, just one, will make it as much a target for punitive damages ... more so because they should have "learned" from our supposedly failed practices.

Eventually, as I said earlier, it will be reasonable to sue the institution of the family as a whole for not protecting our citizens completely.

[Treflienne]

5 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I'm skeptical.  In my 10 years of recruiting kids, never once have I heard - are you a member of WOSM?

That's because if families care,  they will know that information without asking you.    I thought the WOSM connection was a benefit when comparing BSA to BPSA.   I also thought that a local council and local camps and name recogniztion were a big benefit when comparing BSA to BPSA.

[carebear3895]

7 hours ago, David CO said:

That's because we can't.  If we had the power to do that, it would have been done years ago, and BSA would not be in the mess it is in today.  The executive board and the employees are going to try to hang on right to the end.  They won't give up their control of BSA until the lights go out.

 

again.....your do realize the bankruptcy is about sexual abuse cases, right? 

[codger]

Frankly, I am very frustrated that the "natural" response from 90% of the commentators, Scouts, victims and Scouting volunteers is to automatically assert that the natural remedy to heinous crimes of abuse committed by, in some cases, people that are dead or long since removed from their positions within Scouting, is to take money from todays' innocent children and volunteers and give it to the victims.  There is nothing moral about taking from the innocents of today, and the future, to give to victims of the past.  Nothing moral at all.  I get anger on the part of the victims, and a desire to shut down the organization, but I don't get why money salves the conscience of the current volunteer leadership.  yet Turley's letter seems to me to be an admission that we should just give it all to the alleged victims, and then everything will be ok.  Well, I never abused anyone, and I resent being asked through ever-increasing financial demands of the organization to subsidize bad actors of the past. 

[David CO]

1 hour ago, JoeBob said:

May I adjust your wording?  Make American Boy Scouts Great Again.

MABSGA!

Sure.  Have some hats printed.

[David CO]

51 minutes ago, codger said:

There is nothing moral about taking from the innocents of today, and the future, to give to victims of the past. 

I think we agree on this.  There should be a better way.  The victims of the past should have been given justice many years ago.  They weren't.  The executive board and the employees were (and still are) more concerned with keeping their secrets and hiding their complicity than with giving justice to the victims.  

 

[carebear3895]

6 minutes ago, David CO said:

 (and still are) .  

 

This is a complete joke and insulting. Please, enough with your disdain of Professionals.  

Edited February 20, 2020 by carebear3895

[carebear3895]

8 minutes ago, David CO said:

I think we agree on this.  There should be a better way.  The victims of the past should have been given justice many years ago.  They weren't.  The executive board and the employees were (and still are) more concerned with keeping their secrets and hiding their complicity than with giving justice to the victims.  

 

You're the one who keeps calling on Charter Organizations to have complete control. If that's the case, then they need to foot the bill for Victim Compensation. Somewhere, a long time ago, those adults were approved to be leaders by a Charter 

[David CO]

1 hour ago, carebear3895 said:

You're the one who keeps calling on Charter Organizations to have complete control. If that's the case, then they need to foot the bill for Victim Compensation. Somewhere, a long time ago, those adults were approved to be leaders by a Charter 

Fair enough.  If it is shown that Chartered Organizations knew of the abuse and covered it up, my guess is that they will be included in the lawsuits.  I not only think that this is a possibility, it is a likelihood.  

Yes, I do think Chartered Organizations should be actively involved in their units.  They should carefully select the leaders and properly supervise them.  The Chartered Organization owns the unit.  

[ParkMan]

3 hours ago, codger said:

Frankly, I am very frustrated that the "natural" response from 90% of the commentators, Scouts, victims and Scouting volunteers is to automatically assert that the natural remedy to heinous crimes of abuse committed by, in some cases, people that are dead or long since removed from their positions within Scouting, is to take money from todays' innocent children and volunteers and give it to the victims.  There is nothing moral about taking from the innocents of today, and the future, to give to victims of the past.  Nothing moral at all.  I get anger on the part of the victims, and a desire to shut down the organization, but I don't get why money salves the conscience of the current volunteer leadership.  yet Turley's letter seems to me to be an admission that we should just give it all to the alleged victims, and then everything will be ok.  Well, I never abused anyone, and I resent being asked through ever-increasing financial demands of the organization to subsidize bad actors of the past. 

This is a big part of the problem.  No-one publicly wants to describe the situation in these terms - to do so puts one in the position of being against the victims of abuse.  No one wants that label.

 

[desertrat77]

11 hours ago, ParkMan said:

 

Let's not conflate our personal frustrations with the organization that is the BSA with the public policy issue here.  The United States Congress chartered the BSA as the organization tasked with bringing Scouting to boys in this country.

If the BSA dissolves, something will take it's place - but it will be with vastly diminished membership and resources.  15%-20% of kids at best in the new organization.  Summer camps gone.  High adventure bases gone.  Historical good will gone.  We'll be set back 80 years in terms of infrastructure for the program.   Today buying large camp properties is prohibitively expensive.  With no historical connection with the program how many large donors do you expect will fund those camps?  Today there are vastly more youth programs to compete with.  Getting volunteers is vastly harder.  It would be like the Baden Powell Scout Association trying to start up a major Scouting program today.

From a public policy perspective, this is a poor choice for the youth of America.  It would be far better for Congress to assert it's ownership here and clean house.

@Parkman, I agree with your perspectives, but in the last couple days I've been doing a lot of pondering....

I don't think Congress has put much stock in the BSA's charter for a long time.  It's probably viewed as another antiquated decision from yesteryear.  I rather doubt Congress would intervene at all regarding the BSA's future. 

It's true, the camps, HA bases, history, and goodwill would be gone.  But I'm starting to view the situation as we would a forest fire.  The fire burns everything in its path, healthy and detritus alike.  But what grows back is green and fresh. 

Others have mentioned this, but it bears repeating--after legal action is complete, the movement that survives will resemble, to a great degree, what scouting looked like in the early days.  Unit autonomy.  Thriftiness.  Hiking and camping.  Less emphasis on red tape and more on adventure.  Chartering organizations tailor the program to meet their expectations.  Reduce the uniform to work clothes and a neckerchief. Instead of summer camp and Philmont, hike to a local property or explore our vast state and federal park systems.  Get outdoors again.  Hike in, pack on back, and study birds, chop wood with an axe and cook on a fire.  Less emphasis on shiny objects.

In summary, the BSA is getting ready to pay a bill that was due many years ago.  Whether it's fair or not is immaterial at this point.  In addition to settling abuse claims, we will also pay for decades of poor strategic decision making, the total absence of any national-level external public relations effort, and abysmal financial management. 

Those that remain after all is said and done will have an opportunity to begin anew.

Edited February 21, 2020 by desertrat77

[Sentinel947]

At this point, all we can do is what we should all be doing anyways, continue to provide the best possible Scouting experiences to our Scouts, try to build the movement locally, and wait to see what is going to happen to National on down.