Chapter 11 announced

[fred8033]

1 minute ago, ThenNow said:

I couldn't afford Philmont when I was in Scouting. It would be a joy to experience it before I croak. 

This is one of the few ways that I could see as a fair recompense for the past.   I just don't think you can compensate fair / correctly for things that happened in the past.  But, perhaps some action like this would be a "fair" and "protective" for the benefit of people using these bases / properties.

[CynicalScouter]

2 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

My guess is that dues right now are more a factor of insurance premiums than anything

In 2012, BSA National insurance was $47,977,628 PLUS $20,469,404 in claims (see page 16) for $68,447,032

In 2019, it was $134,789,765 PLUS $85,436,251 in claims (see page 19) for $220,226,016

And the 2020 numbers aren't even out yet. So, yeah having your insurance load TRIPLE in 7 years is going to necessitate some dues increases.

And this doesn't even factor in local councils and their insurance, which they are now authorized to have up to $12 in insurance premium fees (in addition to $66 for council activities fee) added on.

[ParkMan]

20 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

For Philmont, this could easily fit into the Antiquities Act as a Philmont trek is a recreation of many historic ways of living.  While I love BSA having this property for high adventures, making it available to the nation as an adventure option is a great idea.

My sense is that Philmont is the one HA base that works as a National Monument - though probably not a full park.

There might some argument for others such as Northern Tier as a National Recreation Area.  The Summit you just annex as part of New River Gorge NRA.

It would be a fascinating idea for the NPS to develop some sort of new youth category - be able to use places like Philmont for their intended purpose under the auspices of the ownership of the NPS.  Expand Philmont and the other main HA bases so that they can be used by any similar youth organization.  The GSUSA for example.

[ParkMan]

14 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

In 2012, BSA National insurance was $47,977,628 PLUS $20,469,404 in claims (see page 16) for $68,447,032

In 2019, it was $134,789,765 PLUS $85,436,251 in claims (see page 19) for $220,226,016

And the 2020 numbers aren't even out yet. So, yeah having your insurance load TRIPLE in 7 years is going to necessitate some dues increases.

And this doesn't even factor in local councils and their insurance, which they are now authorized to have up to $12 in insurance premium fees (in addition to $66 for council activities fee) added on.

Thanks for the numbers - this is very useful to have.

Insurance is crucial and critical to what we do - it's unfortunate that a byproduct of so much of what happened is the increases in insurance premiums.  I suspect that in a roundabout way they will impact the settlement numbers as the BSA will need to figure out how to keep dues manageable enough to attract members, still pay these premiums, and also still pay into the settlement.

[vol_scouter]

2 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

My sense is that Philmont is the one HA base that works as a National Monument - though probably not a full park.

There might some argument for others such as Northern Tier as a National Recreation Area.  The Summit you just annex as part of New River Gorge NRA.

It would be a fascinating idea for the NPS to develop some sort of new youth category - be able to use places like Philmont for their intended purpose under the auspices of the ownership of the NPS.  Expand Philmont and the other main HA bases so that they can be used by any similar youth organization.  The GSUSA for example.

The outstanding programs at the high adventure bases (HAB) would no longer exist if taken by the federal government.  There are limitations on group size in many of the parks and monuments.  Remember Bruce Babbitt as head of the Department of the Interior under Clinton who banned Scouts from the parks?  His policy was modified but who is to say a ban could not happen in the future.

[vol_scouter]

1 minute ago, ParkMan said:

Thanks for the numbers - this is very useful to have.

Insurance is crucial and critical to what we do - it's unfortunate that a byproduct of so much of what happened is the increases in insurance premiums.  I suspect that in a roundabout way they will impact the settlement numbers as the BSA will need to figure out how to keep dues manageable enough to attract members, still pay these premiums, and also still pay into the settlement.

The premiums should decrease because all suits up to and before 16 November 2020 are to be handled by the trust to be formed so the liability is only since that date.  Also, the improved Youth Protection program appears to have dramatically decreased the number of possible suits.  It is my understanding that this in not anticipated to be a problem.  What actually occurs could not follow logical analysis.

[ThenNow]

20 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

It would be a fascinating idea for the NPS to develop some sort of new youth category - be able to use places like Philmont for their intended purpose under the auspices of the ownership of the NPS.  Expand Philmont and the other main HA bases so that they can be used by any similar youth organization. 

I don't know the detail or if there is anything substantive involved, but doesn't National present an annual report to Congress on the state of Scouting? (I've often wondered why/how the matter of the abuse has been avoided in that discussion, but that's another point.) Does Scouting have a champion or sponsor in Congress or someone with whom it has a liaison relationship? It seems like there are great options to explore and discuss, if there are such relationships. Scouting has man people in high places and I would think these discussions could be had. That said, I understand no one was wanting/expecting to be in the position of considering "alternatives" for HA and other key properties. Just wondering out loud.

In 2016 for example, 10 US Senators were Eagle Scouts.

Edited March 4, 2021 by ThenNow

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

The premiums should decrease because all suits up to and before 16 November 2020 are to be handled by the trust to be formed so the liability is only since that date. 

Not really. At this point, BSA is looked upon as a major insurance liability/risk. It just went through a bankruptcy and will wind up costing its insurers at least 1 billion and possibly more in claims.

Any insurance company is going to demand high(er) premiums to cover BSA for at least the near future, if not longer.

[ParkMan]

19 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

The outstanding programs at the high adventure bases (HAB) would no longer exist if taken by the federal government.  There are limitations on group size in many of the parks and monuments.  Remember Bruce Babbitt as head of the Department of the Interior under Clinton who banned Scouts from the parks?  His policy was modified but who is to say a ban could not happen in the future.

There may be some possibilities about the NRA designation - but don't know for certain.

I think back to the inclusion of many of the national battlefields.  As I understand it, that designation came into being when the NPS inherited the properties from the Army.  I'm wondering if a similar thing could occur here - call it a national youth recreation area or something like that.  You could even hire the BSA to operate it as a concessionaire.

[fred8033]

3 hours ago, ThenNow said:

That is the case here. The link below will take you to the insurers' Rule 2004 Discovery Motion. You can scroll to page 7 on the docket file, page 1 of the motion, and begin reading from there. Of course, this is what the insurers "allege" and the respondent groups deny many elements, especially the negative characterization. Several great news stories were written related to this internal battle, as well. 

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/870566_1975.pdf

Wow.  That doc was a fascinating read.  Creepy.  With business partners like that there is no possibility of justice.

[ParkMan]

15 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I don't know the detail or if there is anything substantive involved, but doesn't National present an annual report to Congress on the state of Scouting? (I've often wondered why/how the matter of the abuse has been avoided in that discussion, but that's another point.) Does Scouting have a champion or sponsor in Congress or someone with whom it has a liaison relationship? It seems like there are great options to explore and discuss, if there are such relationships. Scouting has man people in high places and I would think these discussions could be had. That said, I understand no one was wanting/expecting to be in the position of considering "alternatives" for HA and other key properties. Just wondering out loud.

In 2016 for example, 10 US Senators were Eagle Scouts.

I've often wondered the same thing.  Seems to me that it would be in the interest to the US to take this category of organizations and give it additional oversight.  I think we all would welcome an inspector general as well to oversee the operation and youth protection programs to make sure that they are operating in the best way possible.

[ThenNow]

7 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

At this point, BSA is looked upon as a major insurance liability/risk. It just went through a bankruptcy and will wind up costing its insurers at least 1 billion and possibly more in claims.

Any insurance company is going to demand high(er) premiums to cover BSA for at least the near future, if not longer.

I'm on the outside looking in, but as an attorney, former high achieving Scout and abuse victim, I would long ago have added several solid men who were abused as Scouts to advise on the Youth Protection Program. If you're serious about rooting out fraud and data breaches - for an apples to oranges example - government agencies and private companies have hired expert fraudsters and hackers. I certainly wouldn't hire sexual predators, but many of us could add tremendous insight into how to craft and implement protection measures, not to mention speak to leaders about what this looks like in real life. Some, like me, have experienced other sorts of abuse, like physical and emotional, as well. All of that could add to the clear picture of what should be being taught and implemented in YPT. I would be involved in such a program in a minute.

[ThenNow]

1 minute ago, ParkMan said:

Seems to me that it would be in the interest to the US to take this category of organizations and give it additional oversight.  I think we all would welcome an inspector general as well to oversee the operation and youth protection programs to make sure that they are operating in the best way possible.

I wouldn't necessarily trust the "government" to do it correctly, but the BSA may have missed a perfect opportunity to help the internal crisis, as well as advance the cause of protecting children generally. I do understand why it didn't happen, including protecting the brand/reputation, participation, funding and all.

[vol_scouter]

5 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I'm on the outside looking in, but as an attorney, former high achieving Scout and abuse victim, I would long ago have added several solid men who were abused as Scouts to advise on the Youth Protection Program. If you're serious about rooting out fraud and data breaches - for an apples to oranges example - government agencies and private companies have hired expert fraudsters and hackers. I certainly wouldn't hire sexual predators, but many of us could add tremendous insight into how to craft and implement protection measures, not to mention speak to leaders about what this looks like in real life. Some, like me, have experienced other sorts of abuse, like physical and emotional, as well. All of that could add to the clear picture of what should be being taught and implemented in YPT. I would be involved in such a program in a minute.

The BSA has engaged the nation's foremost experts in child abuse, experts from law enforcement, attorneys, and victims of abuse to develop and inform the new Youth Protection program that has dramatically decreased abuse.

[ThenNow]

2 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

The BSA has engaged the nation's foremost experts in child abuse, experts from law enforcement, attorneys, and victims of abuse to develop and inform the new Youth Protection program that has dramatically decreased abuse.

Day Late-Dollar Short is my very long middle name.