Chapter 11 announced

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

We had a statute of limitations.  Nobody expected that 30 year old cases would come back to haunt them.  

I'm still baffled how liability that had long ago expired against situations that society did not understand and that did not have the laws we had today can be reversed.  It baffles me how past incidents can retroactively have liability applied.  It seems we should be applying the laws and liability in placed when the incidents occurred.  Anything else is unfair and immoral.

[5thGenTexan]

38 minutes ago, David CO said:

I think everybody, regardless of age or generation, is feeling this way right now.  Why me?

The answer to that question is really very simple.  Participation in scouting is voluntary.  We have 1 year registrations.  We have no obligations before or after that 1 year.  None at all.  And nobody has to sign up.  The only people who will have to pay up are those who sign up.  And they will only have to pay during the year they sign up.  That's it.  Nothing more.

Why me?  Because you continue to sign up.  That's why.  No other reason.  Your choice.  Your $$$.

I meant "why me" because I was a Scout in the 80s.  I fully understand where my money is going now. 

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

"We have files full of people we bounced out due to child abuse/pedophilia."

Had they admitted and specified, rather than hid, the insurance premiums would have been higher.

I understand the anger and frustration, but these cases did not happen in a vacuum.  Parents were usually involved.  Often police, educators, church, etc.  Society was involved.  

IMHO, these files should be applauded as a BSA effort to nationally block volunteers before police, schools and society ever tried to do that.  In the 1970s, there was no such thing as a national predator database.  There were no instant background checks.  IMHO, BSA should be applauded they had this system in place.  

My question ... how many people were identified and blocked as ineligible because these files existed?  

IMHO, we are trying to hold BSA to a higher standard than schools, police, church and the rest of society.  The nature (grooming, common occurrence, etc) were not well understood.  

IMHO, BSA should be applauded.  

[fred8033]

QUESTION #1 - Are the new dues a recognition that on-going operating cost of BSA will be based almost fully on incoming dues?  Recognizing that current endowments are lost and there will no way to subsidize ongoing operations? 

QUESTION #2 - Are any of the dues such that they can pay debt on assets (camps, buildings) that may need to be mortgage to pay damages? 

Essentially, bankruptcy is a line in the sand.  New dues and new fundraising will be needed to keep BSA afloat and pay new property mortgages.

[TAHAWK]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

I'm still baffled how liability that had long ago expired against situations that society did not understand and that did not have the laws we had today can be reversed.  It baffles me how past incidents can retroactively have liability applied.  It seems we should be applying the laws and liability in placed when the incidents occurred.  Anything else is unfair and immoral.

Politics.

[David CO]

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

BSA should be applauded.  

No.  The public has this right.  What BSA did was an abomination.  

[TAHAWK]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

I'm still baffled how liability that had long ago expired against situations that society did not understand and that did not have the laws we had today can be reversed.  It baffles me how past incidents can retroactively have liability applied.  It seems we should be applying the laws and liability in placed when the incidents occurred.  Anything else is unfair and immoral.

Sexual abuse of children was a crime when these alleged acts of abuse took place.  Civil actions for damages based on criminal conduct are older than our Civil War.  The logic behind statutes of limitations is that allegations from too long ago are difficult to disprove.  Here, the alleged criminals are largely dead, as are the adult witnesses.  The plaintiff's bar now has a virtual money-printing machine - thousands of claimants whose allegations cannot be refuted even if  - if - totally invented.  This logic is ignored in extending limitations period back several generations - another form of "virtue signaling" by politicians.  

This reminds me of requiring "insurance" for "pre-existing conditions," totally contrary to the entire rational for "insurance" - the pooling of money over time to guard against risk.  Here we have no contribution by the "insured" and certainty rather than risk.  So it is a social welfare program paid for by all those actually buying insurance, for which certain politicians take credit.  I am less disturbed by the benefit than the hypocrisy.

SBLM

Google  < Cleveland child  Murder > and first up is Tamir Rice, fatally shot by a rookie cop from a few feet away when he drew a very realistic "toy" pistol.  The cop was let out of his car by his "training officer" right on top of Tamir, who reacted by drawing his toy pistol.  You have to search further down that Google political slide to find that civilians (fill in the rest) killed ten children in homicides in Cleveland, Ohio's murder capital, in 2019, up from seven in 2018.

Twenty were shot in nine hours in Cleveland on July 4th, four children, and three died - all shootings by civilians.  

A 15-year-old was murdered yesterday in East Cleveland, a failed inner -ring suburb of Cleveland.  Her name was Keviania James.  She was a popular and well-liked student in her local high school.  She had dreams.  Shot in the head in a "drive-by" for the "crime" of being alive and in the way of the bangers' shots.  Say her name.  CNN did not.  New York Times did not.  Washington Post did not.  BLM, even locally, has no published comment.  Just the background "noise" of urban slaughter.  Shot by the "wrong" persons.

 

 

 

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, TAHAWK said:

Sexual abuse of children was a crime when these alleged acts of abuse took place.  Civil actions for damages based on criminal conduct are older than our Civil War. 

It's just not that clear.  Crimes were not prosecuted because of challenges.  Civil actions for child sexual abuse were not legislated until 1984 admendments to the 1974 CAPTA law.   ... I'm not a lawyer.  My simplification and facts are no where near 100% clean.  Generally, I believe I am accurate.

The whole topic is just not that simple.  Also, the ugliness of this topic blurs clear thinking on the past.  I just don't think people understood the nature of the abuse until late 1990s / early 2000s.  

... In 1970, child sexual abuse was still mostly unspoken.  Male-on-male child sexual abuse was inconceivable.

... 1970s required witness to testify.  aka putting the child on the stand.  No hearsay.  No video taped evidence.  Prevented pursuing crimes.
... 1973 most child abuse not reported ... by anyone.  Senator Mondale, 1973, congressional hearings.  
... 1974 CAPTA law.  Focus again on physical abuse.  Mandatory reporting was aimed at physicians who saw physical damage (broken ribs, bruises). ... Focus was on physical abuse, aka the BATTERED CHILD syndrome.
... 1980s / 1990s ... Era of stranger danger. ... No mention of "grooming" or trusted friends and family.
... 1981/1985 ... laws start to change about hearsay evidence and child video taped testimony
... 1986 - Meese pornography congressional report
... 1986 - Child sexual abuse and pornography act  
... 2003 mandatory reporting laws started to broaden.  

I'd strongly argue that before late 1990s, child sexual abuse was not well understood, not well handled and preventative training was poor.

Personal reflections ...

1977 & 1984 ... I was in 7th grade in 1976/77.  I took a photography summer school course.  I remember being creeped out that the photography magazines had ads in the back for trading pictures that would TODAY be a felony just to have.  It was common and well known then.  It was not illegal.  Why are people not suing big publishing companies now?  Time Warner?  Etc.  

1990s early - I was newly married.  We lived in North Carolina.  My wife and watched the news each night for years.  Every day was coverage of the Little Rascals Daycare trials.  Recovered memories.  500 charges against seven people.  Years of prosecution.  Eventually all charges were dropped ... except people who accepted pleas for time served or lesser sentences.  One of the saddest is a husband / wife.  Wife took the plea and served jail.  Husband went to trial.  Eventually all charges were dropped against him.  Eventually "recovered memories" from children were strongly questioned. ... I often wonder about this related to scouting.  Memory is not perfect.  Misconnections happen.  Memories can be formed and implanted of things that did not really happen.  Often, people can clearly remember things that did not really happen the way people remember.  The who, what, when, where changes.  Was it me or a dream or someone else changes.
            https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/innocence/profiles/

I really think that we are so angered by the ugliness of the abuse that we are not clearly thinking about how the society was in the past or about what is fair to accept into the legal system.

Edited July 18, 2020 by fred8033

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

No.  The public has this right.  What BSA did was an abomination.  

We will have to differ on this.  It's an ugly situation and people can be rightly upset.

I've read many of the files.  They are all about ugly situations.  BSA is not 100% clean.  Generally though, I see people trying to deal procedurally with very challenging problems and incidents.  Many of the files have requests to update the files.  Many have statements about trying to block the person in the future.   Or trying to tell if it is the same person.  A common theme is communication between BSA, council, units, charter partners about the cases.  Often about the person being recommended to not be registered or about the person being removed.  

https://www.crewjanci.com/resources/boy-scout-perversion-files/?filter=true&&state=minnesota

The one thing that I see as being perceived as daming that probably needs to be taken in context are statements about "deleting records".  I'm taking that about how the registrars updated ScoutNet.  aka in database = registered and approved.   Deleting record = unregistering.  I don't think "deleting records" is infering hiding evidence as these large large paper trail kept a very good evidence of what was happening.  The simple fact of almost every file containing a record that they were going to delete the record indicated it was not about hiding data.  It was about maintaining records. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by fred8033

[TAHAWK]

First, I was commenting on criminal law, not public awareness or social concern.  Manifestly, awareness and concern have risen steadily over the last fifty  years.

Next, most criminal law is state law, not federal law.  So the history of federal law on the topic of sexual abuse of children is hardly dispositive of the topic of when such behavior was a crime, WIKI to the contrary notwithstanding.  Federal jurisdiction is, in fact limited.  Sex crimes occurring in a single state generally fall under state law.

Until relatively recently, many crimes were criminalized by judicial decision - "common law" - rather that statutes.  In Ohio, common law crimes were eliminated by the systematic reorganization  and codification of the criminal code effective in 1974.

I realize that this is difficult to credit these days, but any sexual activity outside of marriage was a crime under state law for "adults" from the foundation of the colonies in North America until relatively recently- the crime of "fornication."  Fornication was a crime in Virginia within this century.  So any adult having sexual relations with any minor not a lawful spouse of that adult was committing a crime for most of our history as a nation state.

The age at which one becomes an "adult" for purposes of law regulating sexual activity is a legal construct, unrelated to biology - the "age of consent."  It has been as low as 10.  Hence this 1818 statute:  "That if any person shall ... carnally know and abuse any woman child under the age of ten years, with or without her consent; every person so offending shall be deemed guilty of rape, and upon conviction thereof, shall be imprisoned in the penitentiary, and kept at hard labor, not more than twenty or less than seven years."   Statues of Ohio and the Northwest Territory (1818).

The first rape conviction in the history of the State of California involved the rape of a female child (1856).

 

 

 

[fred8033]

3 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Next, most criminal law is state law, not federal law.  So the history of federal law on the topic of sexual abuse of children is hardly dispositive of the topic of when such behavior was a crime, WIKI to the contrary notwithstanding.  Federal jurisdiction is, in fact limited.  Sex crimes occurring in a single state generally fall under state law.

State laws do apply.  Federal laws are significant though because they were often the driving force to change state laws.  The early example is the the 1974 CAPTA law would withhold federal funds given to states if the states did not pass laws.  That is how federal laws often drive state changes.  

[skeptic]

It is interesting to me that this particular broad, yet detailed discussion is going on here right now, but that this same discussion has not as yet been offered by the BSA defense team.  Further, should not this same argument, similar to what we have here, be published by some prominent public opinion sources?  

Of course, I have suggested similar things as far back as the first case in Oregon.  I also remember there being concern then about the poor decision to force the release of the Ineligible Files to legal perusal, as we knew that it would lead to just what has occurred.  Logic and any semblance of fairness went out the window a long while back in relation to this.  In many ways, this is just another variant on the McMartin disaster, and a few other similar cases.  Skewed and often barely connected accusations and lack of cooperation from many societal units responsible for the extended follow ups, plus the death of so many witnesses all lead to the perfect storm we now have.  And it is basically our distorted legal system.  We have noted many times now that this would not be happening in 90 percent or more of the larger world, not even what are considered the more progressive and fairest countries.  

[RememberSchiff]

7/29/2020:  The Coalition of Abused Scouts for Justice submitted verified statement to Bankruptcy court: (in part):

1. On or around July 18, 2020, the members of the Coalition, by and through their counsel, formed the Coalition and retained Brown Rudnick LLP and Blank Rome LLP (together, the “Coalition Counsel”) to represent them in connection with the Coalition’s claims and interests in respect of the Debtors and the Bankruptcy Cases. The Coalition is comprised of more than 10,000 sexual abuse victims (collectively, the “Coalition Members”). Each Coalition Member, a party-in-interest, holds claims against the Debtors that may include, but are not necessarily limited to, unsecured claims and administrative claims.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/836358_1053.pdf

[CynicalScouter]

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

The Coalition is comprised of more than 10,000 sexual abuse victims (collectively, the “Coalition Members”). Each Coalition Member, a party-in-interest, holds claims against the Debtors that may include, but are not necessarily limited to, unsecured claims and administrative claims.

The more claimants, the more likely it is that a) National will be forced to sell everything and be left a shell (I still do NOT believe they will be forced to liquidate and shut down, but they'll be left with effectively nothing) and b) the more likely Councils will be on the hook for hundreds of millions.

Edited July 30, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[walk in the woods]

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

7/29/2020:  The Coalition of Abused Scouts for Justice submitted verified statement to Bankruptcy court: (in part):

1. On or around July 18, 2020, the members of the Coalition, by and through their counsel, formed the Coalition and retained Brown Rudnick LLP and Blank Rome LLP (together, the “Coalition Counsel”) to represent them in connection with the Coalition’s claims and interests in respect of the Debtors and the Bankruptcy Cases. The Coalition is comprised of more than 10,000 sexual abuse victims (collectively, the “Coalition Members”). Each Coalition Member, a party-in-interest, holds claims against the Debtors that may include, but are not necessarily limited to, unsecured claims and administrative claims.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/836358_1053.pdf

10000 now and another 3+ months of advertising to go.