Schools & Religious Principle

[David CO]

4 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

But people like me who simply believe we shouldn't take actions to harm others and should treat others as we would want to be treated have no place in Scouts because our morals aren't derived from a believe in a god?

Correct.

[Pale Horse]

6 minutes ago, David CO said:

Correct.

It's more than clear which side the intolerance and exclusion are coming from.

[qwazse]

46 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

... we shouldn't take actions to harm others and should treat others as we would want to be treated ... our morals aren't derived from a believe in a god?

Kudos to the secularist who thought up that one.

Edited February 3, 2020 by qwazse

[Eagledad]

3 hours ago, Pale Horse said:

Your argument would be much more persuasive if you didn't keep referring (intentionally incorrectly?) to morals being tied to someone's particular mood.  

 

It’s intentional and I fully believe it. Character isn’t how one reacts, character is how one reacts. Reacting within the virtues of the Scout law takes practice. And isn’t that what scouting is all about. BSA Mission: “The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.”

 

3 hours ago, Pale Horse said:

Surely you don't imagine that atheists go around "Welp, I'm in a bad mood today, so it must be ok to steal that candy bar from the store..." or "gee, this week has been going terribly, I'm justified in pushing this little lady out of my way..."

 

My. References of reacting to moods is not specific to atheist, but to all human. It’s our nature. That is why we practice making decisions based from moral virtues.

 

2 hours ago, Pale Horse said:

@Eagledad Let's for a minute take your belief as fact that in order to have morals you must believe in god, since all morals are derived from god.

How do you reconcile when 2 opposing religions have differing moral beliefs?

I never said believing of a god is required to have morals. My stand is morals come from God. How we learn our morality is very dependent on our role models and growth from our decisions.

 

3 hours ago, Pale Horse said:

 

How do you reconcile when 2 opposing religions have differing moral beliefs?

Not just religions, but communities, race, sex and a million other differences. The scout oath and law are actions of respect despite our differences.

[Eagledad]

3 hours ago, Pale Horse said:

 

But people like me who simply believe we shouldn't take actions to harm others and should treat others as we would want to be treated have no place in Scouts because our morals aren't derived from a believe in a god?

I don’t know who you are, but I think you are already in scouting. And my posts aren’t about where you found your morals, my position is if god isn’t the source of our morals, then who is?

[Pale Horse]

8 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I don’t know who you are, but I think you are already in scouting. And my posts aren’t about where you found your morals, my position is if god isn’t the source of our morals, then who is?

A reasoned understanding that the world is a better place if we're good to our fellow inhabitants.

For a more thorough answer, check out: https://www.atheist-faq.com/where-does-morality-come-from-if-not-god

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Pale Horse

[SSScout]

"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

³⁴ But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

³⁵ Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

³⁶ Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

³⁷ But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

So , by this reasoning (and it is reasoned, and ultimately a "suggestion"),  one's words should be judged against the rest of the world, at large.  Yes?

[Liz]

20 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I’m going to agree with David, your posts support the point that without god, humans can only feel good about themselves by beating each other up. Did you purposely leave god out of the discussion because god, not religion, was the original reference?

You seem to be doubling down on the man vs man of religion. Ok, man has a problem with pride, that’s given. The point that was presented is that man is fickle and a unperfect, god is perfect and unchanging. So where should a scout go to define values? Please don’t throw the religion analogy at the question again, this is about who a scout should trust more, God or yourself?

And you don’t need to answer, its a thought provoking question.

Barry

 

I never even entered that argument, Barry, let alone came close to anything you're saying I said. 

[ianwilkins]

8 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Not just religions, but communities, race, sex and a million other differences. The scout oath and law are actions of respect despite our differences.

Indeed. Our scouts learning that you can rub along while disagreeing on some things is a valuable lesson for life indeed.

 

11 hours ago, David CO said:

We can't.  It will eventually have to be all of one thing or all of the other.  

I respectfully disagree. In the UK we're offered a set of alternative promises for different faiths and atheists in which you promise to "uphold our scout values, to do my duty to the Queen" instead of "do your duty to god, to do my duty to the Queen" or  "On My honour… or In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent the Most Merciful… ...duty to God and to the Queen or ...duty to Allah and to the Queen" or "duty to my Dharma and to the Queen". And hey, while we're here, if one of you Americans came over here and didn't fancy swearing your promise to our head of state, then "and to the country in which I am now living" is for you.

I suppose it helps that our scout law doesn't have reverent in it.

It seems to work. Aye, it's a compromise,  but life doesn't have to be yes/no black/white, and that's ok.

 

[ianwilkins]

19 hours ago, David CO said:

It is specific enough.  For a hundred years, scouts have understood its meaning.  It is only recently that people have labored to distort its meaning.  When people are determined to distort the clear meaning of words, no words can be sufficient to convey the meaning of the scout law.

For info, this is the original scout law as written in the 1908 Scouting for Boys by Baden Powell...

1.	A SCOUT'S HONOUR IS TO BE TRUSTED. If a scout says "On my honour it is so," that means it is so, just as if he had taken a most solemn oath. Similarly, if a scout officer says to a scout, "I trust you on your honour to do this," the Scout is bound to carry out the order to the very best of his ability, and to let nothing interfere with his doing so. If a scout were to break his honour by telling a lie, or by not carrying out an order exactly when trusted on his honour to do so, he would cease to be a scout, and must hand over his scout badge and never be allowed to wear it again.
2.	A SCOUT IS LOYAL to the King, and to his officers, and to his country, and to his employers. He must stick to them through thick and thin against anyone who is their enemy, or who even talks badly of them.
3.	A SCOUT'S DUTY IS TO BE USEFUL AND TO HELP OTHERS. And he is to do his duty before anything else, even though he gives up his own pleasure, or comfort, or safety to do it. When in difficulty to know which of two things to do, he must ask himself, "Which is my duty?" that is, "Which is best for other people?"---and do that one. He must Be Prepared at any time to save life, or to help injured persons. And he must do a good turn to somebody every day.
4.	A SCOUT IS A FRIEND TO ALL, AND A BROTHER TO EVERY OTHER SCOUT, NO MATTER TO WHAT SOCIAL CLASS THE OTHER BELONGS. If a scout meets another scout, even though a stranger to him, he must speak to him, and help him in any way that he can, either to carry out the duty he is then doing, or by giving him food, or, as far as possible, anything that he may be in want of. A scout must never be a SNOB. A snob is one who looks down upon another because he is poorer, or who is poor and resents another because he is rich. A scout accepts the other man as he finds him, and makes the best of him -- "Kim," the boy scout, was called by the Indians "Little friend of all the world," and that is the name which every scout should earn for himself.
5.	A SCOUT IS COURTEOUS: That is, he is polite to all—but especially to women and children and old people and invalids, cripples, etc. And he must not take any reward for being helpful or courteous.
6.	A SCOUT IS A FRIEND TO ANIMALS. He should save them as far as possible from pain, and should not kill any animal unnecessarily, even if it is only a fly---for it is one of God's creatures.
7.	A SCOUT OBEYS ORDERS of his patrol-leader, or scout master without question. Even if he gets an order he does not like, he must do as soldiers and sailors do, he must carry it out all the same because it is his duty; and after he has done it he can come and state any reasons against it: but he must carry out the order at once. That is discipline.
8.	A SCOUT SMILES AND WHISTLES under all circumstances. When he gets an order he should obey it cheerily and readily, not in a slow, hang-dog sort of way. Scouts never grouse at hardships, nor whine at each other, nor swear when put out. When you just miss a train, or some one treads on your favourite corn---not that a scout ought to have such things as corns--- or under any annoying circumstances, you should force yourself to smile at once, and then whistle a tune, and you will be all right. A scout goes about with a smile on and whistling. It cheers him and cheers other people, especially in time of danger, for he keeps it up then all the same. The punishment for swearing or bad language is for each offence a mug of cold water to be poured down the offender's sleeve by the other scouts.
9.	A SCOUT IS THRIFTY, that is, he saves every penny he can, and puts it in the bank, so that he may have money to keep himself when out of work, and thus not make himself a burden to others; or that he may have money to give away to others when they need it.

[David CO]

1 hour ago, ianwilkins said:

 

It seems to work. Aye, it's a compromise,  but life doesn't have to be yes/no black/white, and that's ok.

 

That not the way things work in the States.  We have a winner-take-all sort of system.  It permeates both our politics and our social activities.  If you don't win, you lose.  There is no compromise.

If the atheists win, the religious people lose.  Religion will be banned from scouting, just like prayer was banned from school.  If we don't ban them, they will ban us.  That's the way it is.

[MattR]

4 hours ago, David CO said:

That not the way things work in the States.  We have a winner-take-all sort of system.  It permeates both our politics and our social activities.  If you don't win, you lose.  There is no compromise.

If the atheists win, the religious people lose.  Religion will be banned from scouting, just like prayer was banned from school.  If we don't ban them, they will ban us.  That's the way it is.

Just to let you know, you're we does not include me. 

[ParkMan]

4 hours ago, David CO said:

That not the way things work in the States.  We have a winner-take-all sort of system.  It permeates both our politics and our social activities.  If you don't win, you lose.  There is no compromise.

If the atheists win, the religious people lose.  Religion will be banned from scouting, just like prayer was banned from school.  If we don't ban them, they will ban us.  That's the way it is.

Respectfully - that's not the USA at all.  We are the great melting pot - a place for people to bring their diverse backgrounds and experiences and together to form a more perfect union.  We are open to new ideas and are the land of opportunity.

We all win when we work together to solve problems and grow.  That's America.

[Sentinel947]

29 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Respectfully - that's not the USA at all.  We are the great melting pot - a place for people to bring their diverse backgrounds and experiences and together to form a more perfect union.  We are open to new ideas and are the land of opportunity.

We all win when we work together to solve problems and grow.  That's America.

Both perspectives are America. There are those on the edges of our political/cultural systems who are waging the ongoing cultural war in our politics, civic groups, corporations and churches. They seek to subjugate and destroy their rivals, or protect themselves from the perceived aggressor, depending on who you ask. 

Then there are those in the middle, who think they can make common cause with those they disagree with. 

Time will tell who is right. Given the state of our politics and how it is leaching and spreading throughout the culture, I'm not as optimistic whether the middle will hold back the edges from further conflict. 

[David CO]

14 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

I'm not as optimistic whether the middle will hold back the edges from further conflict. 

Gee, that would make a great Star Trek episode.