Parents, Non-registered and YP awareness

[ValleyBoy]

As an registered scout leader youth protection is very important.  17 years ago while I was Cubmaster I was at a Council run cub scout family campout.  There were 4 or 5 other families from our pack set up in our campsite.  At that time I had only met each one of these families just several  months before when there son joined the pack.  About the time I was going to start cooking supper for my son and I, I received a phone call from my wife and was informed that she, my mother and daughter had been involved in a bad car accident.  I informed the parents of my pack of what had happen and that I was going to have to leave.  Where my automobile was parked at the camp there was no way I could leave in it without having several autos moved and no way of knowing who they belonged too.  Another couple that son was in another pack who I knew very well since they lived on the same street that we did and our sons played together with offered to carry me to my home 10 miles away from the camp so that I could go to the hospital in our other vehicle.  They offered to watch my son so that I did not have to take him with me.   I made the decision to leave my son with them since it was the only option I had except for taking him with me. 

I broke the cub scout camping rules when I allowed my son to stay over night at the campout without a family member being present at the campout.  Would I do the same thing again today in the same situation, yes I would. 

[T2Eagle]

16 minutes ago, ValleyBoy said:

They offered to watch my son so that I did not have to take him with me.   I made the decision to leave my son with them since it was the only option I had except for taking him with me. 

I broke the cub scout camping rules when I allowed my son to stay over night at the campout without a family member being present at the campout.  Would I do the same thing again today in the same situation, yes I would. 

You weren't in violation of any rules.  From the GTSS "In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult."

Your son was responsible to a specific adult, your friend.  There are plenty of times when neither of Jimmy's parents can go camping so Johnny's parent says "I'll be responsible for Jimmy."  And of course you can have one adult responsible for more than one Cub or else siblings would almost always be out of luck.

Edited January 22, 2020 by T2Eagle

[Pale Horse]

30 minutes ago, ValleyBoy said:

I broke the cub scout camping rules when I allowed my son to stay over night at the campout without a family member being present at the campout.  Would I do the same thing again today in the same situation, yes I would. 

Unless the rules have changed since 17 years ago (and I can't believe they would have changed to be less restrictive), unless your son was a Tiger, there is no requirement that a parent must stay with a Scout on an overnight trip.

[ValleyBoy]

18 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

You weren't in violation of any rules.  From the GTSS "In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult."

Your son was responsible to a specific adult, your friend.  There are plenty of times when neither of Jimmy's parents can go camping so Johnny's parent says "I'll be responsible for Jimmy."  And of course you can have one adult responsible for more than one Cub or else siblings would almost always be out of luck.

 

1 minute ago, Pale Horse said:

Unless the rules have changed since 17 years ago (and I can't believe they would have changed to be less restrictive), unless your son was a Tiger, there is no requirement that a parent must stay with a Scout on an overnight trip.

At different times we have got mixed signals from my local council on what is allowed and not allowed under GTSS when it comes to the scouting program.  The interpretation within my council on cub scout camping is that all cubs below webelos  have to have a parent, relative over the age of 18, or guardian ( foster parent) with them when camping overnight except for council/district overnight lock-ins.

[David CO]

1 hour ago, ValleyBoy said:

Another couple that son was in another pack who I knew very well since they lived on the same street that we did and our sons played together with offered to carry me to my home 10 miles away from the camp so that I could go to the hospital in our other vehicle.  They offered to watch my son so that I did not have to take him with me.   

My Chartered Organization would not normally approve of having a scout from our unit left at camp with people from a different unit.  We would want the scout to remain in our camp site.  But this was an extraordinary circumstance, and allowances must be made for extraordinary circumstances.

[Pale Horse]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

My Chartered Organization would not normally approve of having a scout from our unit left at camp with people from a different unit.  We would want the scout to remain in our camp site. 

I don't think your CO would get much say in the matter. The Scout was removed from their care/custody by the parent and placed under the care of another willing individual/unit. I don't see how your CO could stop that if they wanted to. 

[Jackdaws]

16 hours ago, elitts said:

Are you actually worried about monitoring scout behavior, or are you just trying to short-stop arguments from paranoid parents?

I mean, in my linked troops there are perhaps 3 girls (out of 18) and 4-5 guys (out of 45)  who actually think of the opposite sex as anything other than slightly confusing classmates and they are already part of the venturing crew where no such rules apply anyway.  Besides that, any sexual or romantic behavior is already against the rules in scouts entirely.  So if you DO happen to have kids looking to canoodle at summer camp and they are willing the break the rules against such behavior, they are certainly going to be willing to break rules against a guy and a girl going on a hike together.  Not to mention the fact that with the way teens and pre-teens work, if they really want to "arrange things" the girl will just go off with a female friend, the guy will go off with a male friend, and then they'll meet up somewhere and the friends will make themselves scarce.

In the end, I suppose it's up to your troop, but to me it seems about as useful as banning baseball cleats on camp-outs because "this one time a kid wore his cleats in the tent and put holes in the floor".

I just hope you aren't presenting it as a Boy Scouts of America rule, since there's already WAY to much misinformation out there about "rules".

Really its a little of both.   We are just now starting to have interaction with other units that have girls in them so we are trying to make sure we have our bases covered.  

[TAHAWK]

2 hours ago, ValleyBoy said:

 

At different times we have got mixed signals from my local council on what is allowed and not allowed under GTSS when it comes to the scouting program.  The interpretation within my council on cub scout camping is that all cubs below webelos  have to have a parent, relative over the age of 18, or guardian ( foster parent) with them when camping overnight except for council/district overnight lock-ins.

That is what the BSA rules expressly require - in so many words.  

[ValleyBoy]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

My Chartered Organization would not normally approve of having a scout from our unit left at camp with people from a different unit.  We would want the scout to remain in our camp site.  But this was an extraordinary circumstance, and allowances must be made for extraordinary circumstances.

 

23 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

I don't think your CO would get much say in the matter. The Scout was removed from their care/custody by the parent and placed under the care of another willing individual/unit. I don't see how your CO could stop that if they wanted to. 

At this event I feel Pale Horse is correct.  The reason i feel he is correct is because  of the following.  My council has 3 fall family campout weekends in the fall that are all at the same location.  Most packs decide which weekend that they are going to attend an usually set up in one campsite. but each family attending has to register for the event with the council.   The pack can reserve a campsite for all there families attending if they so desire.  As a pack we would decide which weekend we would attend but each family decided if they wanted to attend that same weekend or were free to attend any of the other 2 weekends. 

[Pale Horse]

12 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

That is what the BSA rules expressly require - in so many words.  

NO.  BSA rules do not require a parent or guardian unless the Scout is a Tiger or Lion.  Refer to Guide to Safe Scouting which @T2Eagle quoted above.  Councils are able to set their own requirements at Council Events, but that is not a BSA rule and cannot be enforced at non-council events.

 

[ParkMan]

Interestingly enough, I contacted the support line at national with a YPT policy question.  It was a pretty technical question where the G2SS and YPT training was not descriptive enough.

The response I got from national was that it's up to each SE to decide how they interpret YPT policy.  So, for something cut and dry it's pretty clear what a council is to do.  But, when you get into the grey areas like this one, different councils can apparently do different things.  So, I don't know that I'd get too hung up on the peculiarities in this case.

[skeptic]

3 hours ago, David CO said:

My Chartered Organization would not normally approve of having a scout from our unit left at camp with people from a different unit.  We would want the scout to remain in our camp site.  But this was an extraordinary circumstance, and allowances must be made for extraordinary circumstances.

Ah yes; common sense and logic rear their head; good to see they are not dead, only apparently dormant much of the time.

[Navybone]

9 hours ago, Pale Horse said:

NO.  BSA rules do not require a parent or guardian unless the Scout is a Tiger or Lion.  Refer to Guide to Safe Scouting which @T2Eagle quoted above.  Councils are able to set their own requirements at Council Events, but that is not a BSA rule and cannot be enforced at non-council events.

 

I am not sure you are reading it right or maybe in totality.  It does not specifically say parents are not required for wolf and bear.  It also says “ 

• Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the youth on approved trips.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/

Edited January 23, 2020 by Navybone

[Pale Horse]

6 hours ago, Navybone said:

I am not sure you are reading it right or maybe in totality.  It does not specifically say parents are not required for wolf and bear.  It also says “ 

• Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the youth on approved trips.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/

Right, "expected to" does not mean "required to". That's in no way saying that they must attend. If you read it like that, none of the Bears could attend a campout if the Bear Den leader can't make it, even if you had every other den and pack leader.

If you continue reading you will see:

Quote

Council-Organized Family Camp

Council-organized family camps are overnight events involving more than one pack. The local council provides all of the elements of the outdoor experience, such as staffing, food service, housing, and program. These are often referred to as parent/pal or adventure weekends. Council-organized family camps should be conducted by trained leaders at sites approved by the local council. Each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian.

In special circumstances, a Cub Scout whose parent or legal guardian is not able to attend an overnight camping trip may participate under the supervision of another registered adult member of the BSA who is a parent of a Cub Scout who is also attending. The unit leader and a parent or legal guardian must agree to the arrangement, and all Youth Protection policies apply. At no time may another adult accept responsibility for more than one additional “non-family member” youth.

Pack Overnighters

These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Pack Overnight Campout Site Appraisal Form, No. 430-902 ). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA Health and Safety and Youth Protection policies apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) to properly understand the importance of program intent, Youth Protection policies, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation.

"In most cases" also means that at times a youth will not be under the supervision of a parent or guardian.  This is expressly stating that there will be camping trips in which a parent of Scout are not in attendance.

 

[elitts]

2 hours ago, Pale Horse said:

"In most cases" also means that at times a youth will not be under the supervision of a parent or guardian.  This is expressly stating that there will be camping trips in which a parent of Scout are not in attendance.

 

The way I always explained this to parents when I was Cubmaster was:

On any council or pack camp-out, every scout (past tiger) must have a parent or guardian along who is responsible specifically for them.  If the child's actual parent or guardian can not attend, they can be placed in the care of some other parent or guardian, but at all times there must be some adult along who is specifically responsible for them.   So your scout can be here with mom or dad, or they can be here with Timmy's mom or dad, but they can not just be dropped off for "whoever" (Cubmaster) to take care of.

Edited January 23, 2020 by elitts