Parents, Non-registered and YP awareness

[Jackdaws]

10 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

With all due respect, while the training may be only 90 minutes, depending upon geographical location, it may take over 4 hours to download the materials to do the training. I am fortunate in that I have high speed internet at home. But other folks in my district, which is extremely rural, do not have access top high speed internet.  One reason why we begged the SE to be allowed in person YP training, and had a group of about 12 from all over attend.

I totally get that. I live in a metropolitan city that does have some very rural areas w/in our city limits.   Our own district is quite a mixture of country and metro areas & 2 counties.   I just kept telling those people who fought me on it and who I know live here in the city to go to the library to try and complete it.   Some of our libraries  have meeting rooms you can reserve that have computers in them for more private use.  

We gave people 8 months to complete it and each month at roundtable and district meetings I caught crap from people complaining.   I had one person complain to me that I had put on a bulletin board at roundtable that their current YPT expires on 9/30/18 at 2359.  She said I thought it was 10/1/18? I just rolled my eyes and walked away.   Some people just like to complain and make waves.  The "we used to do it this way"  & the  "well 25 years ago we did this" people just killed me so instead running the risk of being really rude and un-scout like I chose to step away from the role and them beat up on someone else.  I doubt they will get very far as the current person is a former WB course director and has staffed several courses.    

 

[Jackdaws]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

"We want to make sure they know the boundaries."   Basically, this is what I hoped we could share about.  How do we "Do our best" to assure this?  We will never get all, or for that matter, many adults to take the time or to pay attention.  But, at the same time, by having a broad enough group of adults, leaders with actual YP or not, will enhance our chances for issue NOT occurring.  Nothing is foolproof; we all know that.  On the other hand, we need to keep the parameters of protection in view as well as possible.  This is as much for the adults as it is for the youth.  Those of us old enough remember the life-altering fiasco that was "McMartin".  

Be prepared; work the program.   

Sorry we keep getting off your question.

We want our boy scouts to know that they cannot be one on one with a female scout.   It maybe innocent but the other parent may not view this as that.   We are going to tell our boy scouts that another female cannot be your buddy when we do joint ventures.  

I got onto my son when he was a wolf for being in our tent with a female sibling tagging along.   They went to the tent to get my phone and play games on it.  The flap was open.    I sent her back over to her family and told my son that is not to happen again.   No one other he and I should enter our tent nor should he enter anyone else's tent.  I told him, he can't go off alone like that.   And he was not to be on my phone during a scouting event.  I left it in the tent for a reason.    I tried to instill this into him young.   We talked about not going off with anyone alone or how no one is allowed to see him undressed.   Its a sad state when you have to press this into a child but its better safe than sorry. 

I don't know if there were really any issues at this past years summer camp that we attended.  I specifically tried to watch the girl troops to see how they did while in the big crowds like at the dining hall and flag ceremonies.   They did very well.   One troop was taking a breather up at the dining hall porch in between sessions.  One girl did say that a couple boys said a crude remarks.   She said she set them straight and walked off.    

As for parents, if they will not get registered or do not need to and are attending an event, I would have a meeting before the event began or at Friday nights cracker barrel.   Give them a run down of what YPT is and the no no's and let them know, that if observed violating the policies they will be promptly asked to leave for everyone's safety. 

 

[David CO]

2 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

If they are on a BSA outing, with kids that aren't theirs, YPT absolutely applies for parents that aren't volunteers, but are at BSA events.  

It depends on where the event is being held.  If it is on BSA owned property, then BSA can control the event.  If it is not on BSA property, BSA has little to no control over non-volunteers who happen to be at the event.  

At my school, many school events are open to the public.  All attendees must have a ticket, even if the event is free.  On the back of the ticket is a statement that attendees agree to abide the rules and regulations for the event.  The rules are posted at the entrance.  Presenting the ticket for admission constitutes an acceptance of the agreement.

We live in a free country.  People are not bound to obey anything other than the law (and the agreements they voluntarily accept).  Perhaps BSA should have some sort of ticket to their events, spelling out the rules and policies they agree to as a condition of attendance.

In any case, I don't think scout leaders should try to enforce any rule or policy on non-members unless they have first established rock-solid grounds for doing so.  This would help us to avoid arguments and confrontations with non-member attendees who may not otherwise feel bound by rules they have never agreed to obey.

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by David CO

[ParkMan]

I'm not quite sure what we're discussing here.

At a Scouting event non-leaders need to follow the YPT rules.  However, it's not their job to implement them or to report on them.  The YPT rules are designed to be administered and overseen by registered adults.  That's why the rules all require at least one registered adult at pretty much all times.

So, while awareness in the non-leader community is important, it's not required because placing non-leaders and scouts together unsupervised should not happen.

[qwazse]

We also need to accept the fact that there may be a reason a parent won't register (not in a no-cost position). Something might come up in a background check that a parent would not discuss. In certain of our families, that might apply to both parents.  On occasion the problem might involve something that would be a serious red flag. We've seem some serious messes come through the door.

Still, we want such parents to know what to expect from us. That pamphlet in each handbook is a good start. But, it won't work for most. Frankly, I don't think there's a one size fits all. The best I can think of is a senior scouter (CC or MC or ASM) who invests a lot of time orienting new parents. Call them informal YP tutors.

Getting your older scouts into the YP game is important too.

[Sentinel947]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

It depends on where the event is being held.  If it is on BSA owned property, then BSA can control the event.  If it is not on BSA property, BSA has little to no control over non-volunteers who happen to be at the event.  

At my school, many school events are open to the public.  All attendees must have a ticket, even if the event is free.  On the back of the ticket is a statement that attendees agree to abide the rules and regulations for the event.  The rules are posted at the entrance.  Presenting the ticket for admission constitutes an acceptance of the agreement.

We live in a free country.  People are not bound to obey anything other than the law (and the agreements they voluntarily accept).  Perhaps BSA should have some sort of ticket to their events, spelling out the rules and policies they agree to as a condition of attendance.

In any case, I don't think scout leaders should try to enforce any rule or policy on non-members unless they have first established rock-solid grounds for doing so.  This would help us to avoid arguments and confrontations with non-member attendees who may not otherwise feel bound by rules they have never agreed to obey.

 

If you are on a troop camping trip at a non BSA property like a state park, and a parent who is non registered is walking off somewhere alone with a scout that is not their child, you propose doing nothing, because the YPT rules don't apply to them? They haven't broken any laws (yet.)

Do they mean any harm? No probably not. Is it worth doing nothing and hoping for the best? No. 

We can't forcibly apply YPT to every situation and place, outside of BSA events. (Nor do I want to even try) At BSA events, I'm going to follow YPT and insist others do the same. Meetings, Courts of Honor, Camping trips service projects. Registered or not, I'm making sure all adults involved are following YPT. 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Sentinel947

[ValleyBoy]

11 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

If you are on a troop camping trip at a non BSA property like a state park, and a parent who is non registered is walking off somewhere alone with a scout that is not their child, you propose doing nothing, because the YPT rules don't apply to them? They haven't broken any laws (yet.)

Do they mean any harm? No probably not. Is it worth doing nothing and hoping for the best? No. 

We can't forcibly apply YPT to every situation and place, particularly outside of BSA events, but at BSA events, I'm going to follow YPT and insist others do the same. 

As a unit leader I would have a talk with that adult and inform them that since they are part of an scouting activity that they have to follow scouting YPT rules.  Also that they now have one strike against them and another strike will mean they have to leave the activity. 

[T2Eagle]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

It depends on where the event is being held.  If it is on BSA owned property, then BSA can control the event.  If it is not on BSA property, BSA has little to no control over non-volunteers who happen to be at the event.  

At my school, many school events are open to the public.  All attendees must have a ticket, even if the event is free.  On the back of the ticket is a statement that attendees agree to abide the rules and regulations for the event.  The rules are posted at the entrance.  Presenting the ticket for admission constitutes an acceptance of the agreement.

We live in a free country.  People are not bound to obey anything other than the law (and the agreements they voluntarily accept).  Perhaps BSA should have some sort of ticket to their events, spelling out the rules and policies they agree to as a condition of attendance.

In any case, I don't think scout leaders should try to enforce any rule or policy on non-members unless they have first established rock-solid grounds for doing so.  This would help us to avoid arguments and confrontations with non-member attendees who may not otherwise feel bound by rules they have never agreed to obey.

 

it doesn't depend on where the event is being held.  It does depend on whether it is a scouting event.  Every Chartering Organization agrees to "Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies."  BSA has specific YPT rules, they're not onerous, they're not unreasonable, and they're not hard to follow or enforce.  

If you are participating in a scouting event, or any event outside your own home, you are implicitly agreeing to follow the rules of the event or to forfeit whatever right you might have to be there.  You can't walk across the basketball court or join the team huddle when you're at a kids' basketball game, and no one needs a prewritten agreement in order to enforce those rules. A CO's responsibility is to ensure that BSA's rules are followed at any scouting event they're conducting.  If there's anyone who is not willing to follow those rules it is the CO's responsibility to enforce the rules and/or remove the offender from the event.  That's not a violation of anyone's rights, including the CO's.  If a CO can't or won't do that then they should end their BSA relationship.

[ParkMan]

My understanding matches @T2Eagle & @Sentinel947.

When you're at an event organized as a Scouting event, BSA YPT rules apply.  Of course a CO can impose even more restrictive rules, but they cannot waive any BSA YPT rules.  If a participant decides that they don't want to follow the BSA YPT rules, then they can leave the event.  It's a free society and no-one can compel anyone to attend the Scouting event. But, while there, we do require that those present follow the rules.

[David CO]

5 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

My understanding matches @T2Eagle & @Sentinel947.

When you're at an event organized as a Scouting event, BSA YPT rules apply.  Of course a CO can impose even more restrictive rules, but they cannot waive any BSA YPT rules.  If a participant decides that they don't want to follow the BSA YPT rules, then they can leave the event.  It's a free society and no-one can compel anyone to attend the Scouting event. But, while there, we do require that those present follow the rules.

BSA cannot always compel a non-member to leave a place that is not owned or controlled by BSA.  It is indeed a free society, and the unit can leave,  if they have a mind to do so, but they cannot always compel someone else to leave, or to follow their rules.  

[MikeS72]

46 minutes ago, David CO said:

BSA cannot always compel a non-member to leave a place that is not owned or controlled by BSA.  It is indeed a free society, and the unit can leave,  if they have a mind to do so, but they cannot always compel someone else to leave, or to follow their rules.  

In one of my several uniforms, I am a Cub Scout Day Camp Director.  Our camp, like many others, is held at a county park.  While we pay a very high fee to use the park for the week, there are portions of the park that are still open to the public.  We do not tell the general public what they may do in the open areas of the park, but we do not allow them to mingle with the cubs.

What I think the gist of this thread is about, is not a scout event in an area open to the public, but parents/family friends who are attending an event that is only scouts, such as cub family camp, day camp, or some troop outing.  In that specific instance, registered or not, YPT rules such as no one on one apply to every adult present and participating in that event.  We frequently have parents volunteer for the week at day camp who are not registered leaders.  They are all required (National Camp Standards) to take an in person YPT class, and must abide by those rules or make the choice not to participate.

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

BSA cannot always compel a non-member to leave a place that is not owned or controlled by BSA.  It is indeed a free society, and the unit can leave,  if they have a mind to do so, but they cannot always compel someone else to leave, or to follow their rules.  

Sure - that's true.  We cannot mandate anything really.  In almost all cases we can simply to tell people what we expect and to tell them when they are not welcome and ask them to leave.  I suppose that one could get into situations and discuss calling the police to forcibly remove people from the premises - but I hope that never happens. 

But, really, I think these are all technicalities.  In most cases, folks want to do the right thing.

[elitts]

6 hours ago, Jackdaws said:

Sorry we keep getting off your question.

We want our boy scouts to know that they cannot be one on one with a female scout.   It maybe innocent but the other parent may not view this as that.   We are going to tell our boy scouts that another female cannot be your buddy when we do joint ventures. 

 

Are you actually worried about monitoring scout behavior, or are you just trying to short-stop arguments from paranoid parents?

I mean, in my linked troops there are perhaps 3 girls (out of 18) and 4-5 guys (out of 45)  who actually think of the opposite sex as anything other than slightly confusing classmates and they are already part of the venturing crew where no such rules apply anyway.  Besides that, any sexual or romantic behavior is already against the rules in scouts entirely.  So if you DO happen to have kids looking to canoodle at summer camp and they are willing the break the rules against such behavior, they are certainly going to be willing to break rules against a guy and a girl going on a hike together.  Not to mention the fact that with the way teens and pre-teens work, if they really want to "arrange things" the girl will just go off with a female friend, the guy will go off with a male friend, and then they'll meet up somewhere and the friends will make themselves scarce.

In the end, I suppose it's up to your troop, but to me it seems about as useful as banning baseball cleats on camp-outs because "this one time a kid wore his cleats in the tent and put holes in the floor".

I just hope you aren't presenting it as a Boy Scouts of America rule, since there's already WAY to much misinformation out there about "rules".

[Sentinel947]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

BSA cannot always compel a non-member to leave a place that is not owned or controlled by BSA.  It is indeed a free society, and the unit can leave,  if they have a mind to do so, but they cannot always compel someone else to leave, or to follow their rules.  

I'll happily take a few more down votes from you, they are just internet points. You didn't answer my question. Do you care to address it? Let's first establish that as a registered leader, if the Scout's parents are not present, I am responsible for the Scout's safety and wellbeing when they are at a Scouting event. I can't compel any adult to do anything, but if I think there is a risk to a youth, I'll call out any adult out on their behavior, and I can verbally compel a Scout to do things if I think they are in danger. I'm obligated to. 

A couple scenarios, each of which you would say that as an adult I should do nothing, since it's not BSA property or registered volunteers. Note that many of these issues go away requiring the Scouts to use the buddy system. This is another pillar of BSA YPT training, on top of 2 registered adults, no 1 on 1 contact between youth and adults. 

• A scout is on a camping trip with the troop at a State Park, where there are registered leaders and non-registered parents attending. The Scout mentions his cell phone died (this troop allows cell phones.) One of the unregistered parents mentions that they have a charger for that type of phone in their car. The Scout asks if he can borrow it, the parent agrees, and the two of them start to walk to the car, which is not far away, but is not visible to other Scouts and adults. 
  • I've been in this situation as a third party. I intervened, explained the rule, and went with them to the car. The parent was a bit embarrassed, but understood. It was just as much for protecting that parent's reputation as it was protecting the Scout. Bonus points because it covers the Troop and CO as well. 
• The Troop is at a Troop meeting at the Charter Organization, a Church, so not BSA property. The meeting begins; one of the Scouts asks to borrow the keys to storage shed to get supplies for the meeting. You noticed on your way to the meeting that the facilities manager of the church, a non-registered adult was outside working at the shed. 
  • Been there, done that. Made sure the Scout took a buddy. Told them to not get in the away of the facilities manager.If they had taken an unusual amount of time to get supplies, I would have checked up on them. 

The BSA YPT rules do not have force of law, but they are not meant just to protect Scouts from registered leaders, but from an adult that may want to harm them or groom them during Scout events. The BSA or I cannot control what happens to those youth outside of Scouting, but while they are at BSA events, under my supervision, where their parents have entrusted them into my care, I am going to follow the rules, and if that means I have to instruct non-registered adults on the rules and interrupt things they might be doing, I've done it, and I'll do it again. 

These rules have really taken on new meaning to me after last year. Last year my former parish Priest was arrested by police after he had been having unwanted text message conversations with teenager parishioners, and being overly touchy and grabby in person. He was instructed several times by the auxiliary bishop to stop his behavior after parents complained several times over a few years, but he couldn't. Each accusation was forwarded to the county police, but there were no charges filed because nothing illegal had happened. After he moved to a new parish and had another complaint filed, The Archbishop finally got involved and put him on indefinite leave to get counseling. When that news broke and went public, an adult victim came forward with an accusation, saying that my former priest had raped him in the 1990s before he was a priest. 

The Catholic Church has very similar policies to the BSA, and they work when they are followed, when people are vigilant. Parents who had not taken Virtus training had enough exposure to its concepts to take their children's concerns seriously. Lay leadership of the parish who had noticed concerning behavior had also reported it. Thankfully enough eyes were on him that he didn't do anything. 

[yknot]

 

4 hours ago, David CO said:

BSA cannot always compel a non-member to leave a place that is not owned or controlled by BSA.  It is indeed a free society, and the unit can leave,  if they have a mind to do so, but they cannot always compel someone else to leave, or to follow their rules.  

Interesting. 

I was involved in a lawsuit in another organization where the organization's policies were not clear. I think you have some modicum of protection, regardless of national policies or lack of clarity, if you clearly make it a well publicized policy of your own local chapter(unit) to require any adult involved with youth to complete YPT before participating in any local unit event or they will be asked to leave.