Parents, Non-registered and YP awareness

[skeptic]

Reviewing various pieces of YP, I do not find anything "specific" to how to approach the general adult contact from family, friends, and unregistered parents.  Other than the various guides in the fronts of the manuals, the ones parents are in theory covering with their youth, what is there?  As you review the fewer, but still occurring cases it seems as if the problem is often because those actually trained are not in the position to observe at times.  How many parents, or simply adults in attendance at a general gathering, are prepared to note YP violations?  What are our best ways to cover as much of the possible scenes as we can, encouraging general parental attendees to at least know the rules, registered or not?

[David CO]

I think we need to assume that those adult attendees (who choose to not register as unit leaders) don't want to be unit leaders.  They don't want to supervise the youth at scouting events.  They don't want to actively observe other adults and note YP violations.  They don't want to study the rules.  They just want to show up at the event to show their love and support for their kid.   

We leaders should not depend on non-volunteers to do our jobs.  Let them just attend, and thank them for their support.

[yknot]

I don't think the ongoing problems result from non YPT random adults. I think it's due to artifacts of our dysfunctional organizational structure. There is another discussion taking place right now about scouts not knowing how to speak up against adults. It's not just kids, it's a lot of adults too. Our top down, hierarchical structure inherently protects or at least allows room to operate to those who want to do the wrong thing. 

Edited January 21, 2020 by yknot

[skeptic]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

I think we need to assume that those adult attendees (who choose to not register as unit leaders) don't want to be unit leaders.  They don't want to supervise the youth at scouting events.  They don't want to actively observe other adults and note YP violations.  They don't want to study the rules.  They just want to show up at the event to show their love and support for their kid.   

We leaders should not depend on non-volunteers to do our jobs.  Let them just attend, and thank them for their support.

I guess my concern is not coming through.  We are told we cannot keep non registered adults that are part of the family group, or for that matter just friends, from attendance.  And that is fine, as long as the parents understand the YP rules, at least the minimum, such as kids not alone with single adults or big age gaps of youth.  The YP protection standards need to apply to ALL adults, even if they choose to not be registered, and we need to NOT  assume that because someone vouches for them that we can somehow allow the rules to be bent or ignored.  That comes from assuring, in some manner, that the parents understand those standards, even if they prefer not to be actually registered.  That is not asking them to do our jobs, that is simply asking them to understand the rules and if necessary be aware of their violations as well.  Is there a way to reach MOST of them, even if not regular attendees or leaders?

 

[qwazse]

 

8 hours ago, skeptic said:

...  The YP protection standards need to apply to ALL adults, even if they choose to not be registered, and we need to NOT  assume that because someone vouches for them that we can somehow allow the rules to be bent or ignored.  ...

This falls apart on multiple levels. Uncle Jack, who has been taking his nieces and nephews to his favorite fishing hole since they could walk, is not going to stop just because they are now scouts. Bobby the babysitter with a driver's license is not going to stop driving the kids to events just because they are under the auspices of the BSA. And certainly not when she turns 18. Jane, who is in college someplace awesome to hike is going to invite her younger brother and scout buddy to stay at her dorm the night before some cool scouting expo on her campus. A half dozen boys are going to meet and apply their skills to spend a night in Gramp's' cabin near the state game lands. Gramp's will toss them the keys to the cabin and maybe the pickup to haul their gear there.

That said, I think it's a really good idea to encourage parents to get a scouting.org account and take the youth protection training online. I usually tell them that they are better served when they know the standards we scouterr are holding ourselves to.

Before departures, I'll have drivers circle up and give them a thumbnail of risk zone and buddy system. At camp, I'll have new adults gather by the moka pot and give the. A thumbnail YPT.

Edited January 21, 2020 by qwazse

[David CO]

9 hours ago, skeptic said:

The YP protection standards need to apply to ALL adults, even if they choose to not be registered

The YP rules do not apply to non-members.  BSA has no authority over them.  

 

[Jackdaws]

Prior to the new YPT rule coming into effect in 2018, our pack would hold several group Youth Protection trainings for all parents/guardians.  We would do a parent orientation right after round up and then a couple more before we went camping for the first time.    We filled out training rosters and I submitted them to council for them to hold.   Then they came out with the new training and no one could get an in person copy to do  a group training.  It had to be cleared by the Scout Executive and several others at council.   Jeepers.   We had to drop committee members because for whatever reason, couldn't seem to find that 90 or so min. to take it at home(really lame excuses).   It was a huge pain in the rear end.   I was the district training chair at the time and I was ready to pull out my quickly graying hair.  I caught so much crap from the 60-80 year old leaders who tried to say they didn't have a computer.  I said you can go to the library and use one there for free.  Even offered them a ride if that was really the case.   They got it done but sheesh it killed me and soured me on being the training person. 

By not allowing in person group trainings, I feel like the safety levels have gone down.   Those who would have been informed previously now  are unaware of all of the new protections in place.   

We have asked that parents of boys in our troop sit with their son and do the YPT.  We had some issues with bullying last year so we asked it so the boys are aware of their actions and behaviors.  We are thinking of asking it again as the boys are now starting to notice girls and will be interacting with them at certain events and at summer camp.    We want to make sure they know the boundaries.   

I think where the main issue maybe is the 72 hour rule and requiring the adults to be trained.   If you go on 2 camp outs that makes for over 72 hours.   In Cub Scouts that is going to make for a lot of irritated parents if packs stick to their guns on that rule.  

 

 

[ParkMan]

5 minutes ago, Jackdaws said:

Prior to the new YPT rule coming into effect in 2018, our pack would hold several group Youth Protection trainings for all parents/guardians.  We would do a parent orientation right after round up and then a couple more before we went camping for the first time.    We filled out training rosters and I submitted them to council for them to hold.   Then they came out with the new training and no one could get an in person copy to do  a group training.  It had to be cleared by the Scout Executive and several others at council.   Jeepers.   We had to drop committee members because for whatever reason, couldn't seem to find that 90 or so min. to take it at home(really lame excuses).   It was a huge pain in the rear end.   I was the district training chair at the time and I was ready to pull out my quickly graying hair.  I caught so much crap from the 60-80 year old leaders who tried to say they didn't have a computer.  I said you can go to the library and use one there for free.  Even offered them a ride if that was really the case.   They got it done but sheesh it killed me and soured me on being the training person. 

By not allowing in person group trainings, I feel like the safety levels have gone down.   Those who would have been informed previously now  are unaware of all of the new protections in place.   

We have asked that parents of boys in our troop sit with their son and do the YPT.  We had some issues with bullying last year so we asked it so the boys are aware of their actions and behaviors.  We are thinking of asking it again as the boys are now starting to notice girls and will be interacting with them at certain events and at summer camp.    We want to make sure they know the boundaries.   

I think where the main issue maybe is the 72 hour rule and requiring the adults to be trained.   If you go on 2 camp outs that makes for over 72 hours.   In Cub Scouts that is going to make for a lot of irritated parents if packs stick to their guns on that rule.  

 

 

The BSA allows for in-person YPT courses.  Our council does them.  There is a printed syllabus, trainers are certified, and they are required to teach the curriculum "as is".  The presentation has to be up to the level of the online training.  Since you're the district training chair I'd encourage a conversation with the council training chair and YPT champion.  

[walk in the woods]

23 minutes ago, Jackdaws said:

I think where the main issue maybe is the 72 hour rule and requiring the adults to be trained.   If you go on 2 camp outs that makes for over 72 hours.   In Cub Scouts that is going to make for a lot of irritated parents if packs stick to their guns on that rule. 

I don't believe the 72 hours is cumulative over the scouting year, rather, it's per event.

[Jameson76]

26 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

I don't believe the 72 hours is cumulative over the scouting year, rather, it's per event.

Correct.  The most often confused statement in YPT and the one so many Scouters feel they know, but it's not what they think

From the BSA - FAQ on YPT - https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/email/campaign/Youth-Protection-FAQ_03-07-2018.pdf

Effective June 1, 2018, adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as a leader, including completion of a criminal background check and Youth Protection Training. The 72 hours need not be consecutive

Note that they are referring to THE activity, not ALL activities.  If they come to summer camp driving up Sunday, leaving Tuesday morning (48 hours), then come up Thursday night and plan to stay until Saturday for the drive home, the 72 hours would apply.

Now - don't get me started on how Scouters may not understand the difference between 2 Deep Leadership and No One on One contact.

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Jameson76

[Jackdaws]

57 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

The BSA allows for in-person YPT courses.  Our council does them.  There is a printed syllabus, trainers are certified, and they are required to teach the curriculum "as is".  The presentation has to be up to the level of the online training.  Since you're the district training chair I'd encourage a conversation with the council training chair and YPT champion.  

I left being the training chair about the end of 2018 mainly due to frustration on trying to get it thru peoples heads that it was not ME implementing these rules, its coming from lots of other people before it gets to little peons like me.  If they want to complain, start in Irving TX and work their way down but let me know how it goes. 

At the time of the new YPT roll out and for several months after they (council) said that no in person trainings for YPT could be held w/o the SE and other key people's approval.   Everyone kept saying it was like a 3-4 hour training when the online version would take 1.5 hours so just do it at home.   Council did hold a couple in person trainings but I don't believe the turn out was very good. 

[skeptic]

1 hour ago, Jackdaws said:

Prior to the new YPT rule coming into effect in 2018, our pack would hold several group Youth Protection trainings for all parents/guardians.  We would do a parent orientation right after round up and then a couple more before we went camping for the first time.    We filled out training rosters and I submitted them to council for them to hold.   Then they came out with the new training and no one could get an in person copy to do  a group training.  It had to be cleared by the Scout Executive and several others at council.   Jeepers.   We had to drop committee members because for whatever reason, couldn't seem to find that 90 or so min. to take it at home(really lame excuses).   It was a huge pain in the rear end.   I was the district training chair at the time and I was ready to pull out my quickly graying hair.  I caught so much crap from the 60-80 year old leaders who tried to say they didn't have a computer.  I said you can go to the library and use one there for free.  Even offered them a ride if that was really the case.   They got it done but sheesh it killed me and soured me on being the training person. 

By not allowing in person group trainings, I feel like the safety levels have gone down.   Those who would have been informed previously now  are unaware of all of the new protections in place.   

We have asked that parents of boys in our troop sit with their son and do the YPT.  We had some issues with bullying last year so we asked it so the boys are aware of their actions and behaviors.  We are thinking of asking it again as the boys are now starting to notice girls and will be interacting with them at certain events and at summer camp.    We want to make sure they know the boundaries.   

I think where the main issue maybe is the 72 hour rule and requiring the adults to be trained.   If you go on 2 camp outs that makes for over 72 hours.   In Cub Scouts that is going to make for a lot of irritated parents if packs stick to their guns on that rule.  

 

 

"We want to make sure they know the boundaries."   Basically, this is what I hoped we could share about.  How do we "Do our best" to assure this?  We will never get all, or for that matter, many adults to take the time or to pay attention.  But, at the same time, by having a broad enough group of adults, leaders with actual YP or not, will enhance our chances for issue NOT occurring.  Nothing is foolproof; we all know that.  On the other hand, we need to keep the parameters of protection in view as well as possible.  This is as much for the adults as it is for the youth.  Those of us old enough remember the life-altering fiasco that was "McMartin".  

Be prepared; work the program.   

[ParkMan]

34 minutes ago, Jackdaws said:

I left being the training chair about the end of 2018 mainly due to frustration on trying to get it thru peoples heads that it was not ME implementing these rules, its coming from lots of other people before it gets to little peons like me.  If they want to complain, start in Irving TX and work their way down but let me know how it goes. 

At the time of the new YPT roll out and for several months after they (council) said that no in person trainings for YPT could be held w/o the SE and other key people's approval.   Everyone kept saying it was like a 3-4 hour training when the online version would take 1.5 hours so just do it at home.   Council did hold a couple in person trainings but I don't believe the turn out was very good. 

Gotcha.

Yeah - it's too bad the BSA infrastructure makes this kind of thing so hard.  I can see that the BSA online version has been carefully constructed such that it conveys lots of information.  I further recognize that the key concern is that a volunteer trainer will omit important information which could then result in serious mistakes.  I know our volunteer trainers can be successful here - it just requires a little elbow grease and some faith in the system from national.

[Sentinel947]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

The YP rules do not apply to non-members.  BSA has no authority over them.  

 

If they are on a BSA outing, with kids that aren't theirs, YPT absolutely applies for parents that aren't volunteers, but are at BSA events.  

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, Jackdaws said:

We had to drop committee members because for whatever reason, couldn't seem to find that 90 or so min. to take it at home(really lame excuses). 

With all due respect, while the training may be only 90 minutes, depending upon geographical location, it may take over 4 hours to download the materials to do the training. I am fortunate in that I have high speed internet at home. But other folks in my district, which is extremely rural, do not have access top high speed internet.  One reason why we begged the SE to be allowed in person YP training, and had a group of about 12 from all over attend.