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[SSScout]

22 minutes ago, David CO said:

That is such a latitude-ist statement!  How offensive!  It clearly implies that South is inferior to North!  Please stop!  Oh, for pity sake, please stop!  [sob]

"Sold South",  "sold down the river".    Y'all need to follow the drinkin' gourd.....

 

[ParkMan]

5 hours ago, jsychk said:

However, I respectfully disagree with the sexist part because the quality of a strong male leader is very different from the same of a strong female leader. That's a fact. Let me put it that way. Men & women are never equal, ever. We are definitely wired differently. Men & women process different unique abilities. Just like my situation, when problems happen, I want to talk about it, vent and be heard. That's the emotion part of a woman. However, the men's problem-solving advice is more like "follow the procedure, get over & move on." Period.
 

Respectfully - this is simply not true.

Any differences that we bring to Scouting because of gender are far outweighed by differences in upbringing, family influence, schooling, and career.  Some of the absolute toughest, practical, most no-nonsense leaders I know are women.  

I don't doubt that you mean no disrespect to either gender by your comments.  I am not looking to turn this into a political correctness discussion either.  If it had not come up in the topic, I probably would have not commented myself.  But, since it has come up, I would suggest that as adult leaders in a development program now open to both genders, we really should think twice before ever inserting "male" or "female" into descriptive phrases like "a strong male leader". 

When kids hear statements like "the den is lacking a strong male leader", they remember the word "male".  You telegraph to female kids that there are things they need males to help with.  You telegraph to male kids that it's OK to not fully respect a female leader.  I know this isn't what you intend, but it's what happens.

Anyways - please pardon the soapbox comments here.  I'm not looking to lecture - you came here with a problem and we're here to help out  Again, with these comments out there, I thought it important that the other side be presented.

[TAHAWK]

My troop had uniformed female leaders nine years before BSA caught on that disqualifying over half the adult population wasn't helping with the critical shortage of adult volunteers. (Including a retired USMC First Sgt.)   Forty years after recognizing the issue, what is the BSA  "plan" to address the problem of getting more adult volunteers?    Crickets.  

 

And if there is an issue of violence from a cheating adult, what is council doing?  This guy should not be around for YPT reasons alone.  Adult Association is supposed to be with adults of integrity.  The son is stuck with him.  (And the same issues arise with Merit Badge mills.  Horrible examples tolerated by councils and BSA for venal reasons.)

Edited January 8, 2020 by TAHAWK

[jsychk]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

Respectfully - this is simply not true.

Any differences that we bring to Scouting because of gender are far outweighed by differences in upbringing, family influence, schooling, and career.  Some of the absolute toughest, practical, most no-nonsense leaders I know are women.  

I don't doubt that you mean no disrespect to either gender by your comments.  I am not looking to turn this into a political correctness discussion either.  If it had not come up in the topic, I probably would have not commented myself.  But, since it has come up, I would suggest that as adult leaders in a development program now open to both genders, we really should think twice before ever inserting "male" or "female" into descriptive phrases like "a strong male leader". 

When kids hear statements like "the den is lacking a strong male leader", they remember the word "male".  You telegraph to female kids that there are things they need males to help with.  You telegraph to male kids that it's OK to not fully respect a female leader.  I know this isn't what you intend, but it's what happens.

Anyways - please pardon the soapbox comments here.  I'm not looking to lecture - you came here with a problem and we're here to help out  Again, with these comments out there, I thought it important that the other side be presented.

Respectfully...means I respect his brief/opinion, although it is different from mine. It's okay that we can have different opinions because we live in America, not China! Like you said, we come from different backgrounds. Living in this country, I want this country to be strong and great. IMO I don't think PC helps with the cause. 

Instead of avoiding the topic, why don't we  just tell the truth & teach the reality to the kids?! Men & women are indeed different in so many ways but we can be complimentary to each other. Each gender brings unique strengths & abilities to the world. First of all, I don't tell the  kids that our den lacks a strong male leader, why should I? I just discuss that with adults. I just know a strong male leader is what all the moms in our den want. We all want the best for our sons. That's our instinct.

I don't understand why you think I shouldn't teach girls that they need help from guys. As a woman, I know I need help from guys, such as making babies, hauling a heavy tree trunk, plumbing, fixing the roof, changing the car oil, repairing all the problems in my house. Can women do it? Absolutely (except the baby one). But do we really WANT to do it, mostly not! 

We (women) want a strong male leader for our sons in scouting, but that doesn't make boys to disrespect (not fully respect) women because I believe women bring other values to the table. 

I apologize that I need to use plain English because English is my 2nd language and I am no lawyer here. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by jsychk

[qwazse]

I'm in a community that firmly believes in that the ideal unit leader would be male. I do worry that many good leaders for our boys are being passed over because they are women. Heck I always told my crew up front that they got stuck with the least qualified adult for a crew advisor.

But, I also have to admit that my belief takes a back seat to what parents believe. The opposing opinions are intrinsically subjective.

By the way, considering how hard it is to get my bulk where it can grip the plug, oil changes would go a lot more quickly if the gals took ownership of them.

[Eagledad]

I have worked with many wonderful female leaders. The two best bosses I've worked under in my  lifetime are females. One of them gay. But, I still believe the best leader for scouts before puberty are adult leaders of the same gender. I was guided by child psychologist that youth learn at least 90% of their behavior by simply observing influencing role models. A high degree of that Influence is the role models are of the same gender. I feel many young adults struggling today with their identity didn't have the opportunity to grow with influencing same gender role models. As for the influence from role models of the opposite gender, love and humility are the two greatest character traits a person can learn and the balance of influence from role models of the opposite gender teaches us those traits. 

I agree with qwazse about the oil change, but my 29 year old daughter called me the other night and told me (ordered me) to go change the tire on her husbands car that is sitting at the corner 7-11. When I drove up to my son in law's car, he already had the flat tire half way off. As I walked up, he said, "I have orders to sit in the car while you change the tire so I don't get crushed". Then he said, "I'm not sure how to feel about that". I didn't know how to take it either, I just learned that I was expendable in the family hierarchy, and that I now have two bosses in the family. It was a bummer night all together.

Barry

Edited January 8, 2020 by Eagledad

[ParkMan]

There are certainly differences between men & women.  As a parent with both sons and daughters I've seen that clearly.

The point is that there are a lot fewer differences in capability between the genders than we often think.  Woman clearly have the ability to lead a group of kids, to haul a log, fix the plumbing, to change the oil.  I work in a STEM related field that has historically been primarily male.  Today there are many women in my field.  Contributors, leaders, managers, executives - they are very successfully filling all kinds of roles.  20, 30 years ago this was rare - today, it's very common.  Locally, I see more and more women in skilled trades roles - construction, electrical work, landscaping, etc.  It has become so commonplace in my area today that you almost don't even think about it anymore.

 When dealing with kids, regardless of our geography or background, I would suggest that we be mindful how we portray a woman's ability to succeed.  @jsychk - since you mentioned hauling a log, I was reminded of the "Inspire Her Mind" video that impacted me and which I've posted a few times here.  I've included a link to that below.  The point is that we need to watch the subtle things we do that suggest that women cannot be every bit as successful as men.  I would specifically suggest that whenever you feel the instinct to insert the phrase "we need a male leader" or "we need a dad to do", you really ask yourself - is this really true or is this simply what I'm accustomed to saying?  

 

[fred8033]

Post deleted.  It was started days ago and is now out-of-sync with the thread.

Edited January 8, 2020 by fred8033

[Pale Horse]

I can just imagine the outrage (rightfully so) if someone were to come on here and say " What our pack really needs is some good Den Moms to make us snacks and clean up after us. Sure, us men could do our own cooking and cleaning, but we really don't want to." 

We're teaching life skills and part of that is self-reliance. Relying or expecting someone else to do it just because they're a certain gender is counter-productive.

[Eagledad]

18 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

There are certainly differences between men & women.  As a parent with both sons and daughters I've seen that clearly.

The point is that there are a lot fewer differences in capability between the genders than we often think.  Woman clearly have the ability to lead a group of kids, to haul a log, fix the plumbing, to change the oil.  I work in a STEM related field that has historically been primarily male.  Today there are many women in my field.  Contributors, leaders, managers, executives - they are very successfully filling all kinds of roles.  20, 30 years ago this was rare - today, it's very common.  Locally, I see more and more women in skilled trades roles - construction, electrical work, landscaping, etc.  It has become so commonplace in my area today that you almost don't even think about it anymore.

 When dealing with kids, regardless of our geography or background, I would suggest that we be mindful how we portray a woman's ability to succeed.  @jsychk - since you mentioned hauling a log, I was reminded of the "Inspire Her Mind" video that impacted me and which I've posted a few times here.  I've included a link to that below.  The point is that we need to watch the subtle things we do that suggest that women cannot be every bit as successful as men.  I would specifically suggest that whenever you feel the instinct to insert the phrase "we need a male leader" or "we need a dad to do", you really ask yourself - is this really true or is this simply what I'm accustomed to saying?  

 

I certainly can't disagree, but we also have to be mindful of an over reaction in the other direction because that is just as harmful. In scouting, balance isn't that boys and girls are equal in their abilities, balance is that living the Oath and Law encourages scouts to live to the best of their abilities. If scouts observe adults living the actions of oath and law toward each other, then everything else will balance out because respecting the best abilities of each other is living the oath and law.

My main objection to bringing troop age girls into the troops is that mix genders will take away from what boys are supposed gain from the program. Girls by their nature are more organized and better with follow through. In the patrol method environment, the nature of girls is unbalanced and will take away the opportunities to force the boys to practice those unnatural skills. I've heard a few voices of skepticism of that reasoning, but the number one complaint from Venturing adult leaders is that the boys don't engage very well on the planning and management of the crew. Girls naturally take up the slack. Strangely, many adults use that observation to brag about girls. While I believe that money drove the BSA to bring girls into the program, I believe illusion of social justice is more on the minds of many volunteers. OK, fine. But, the unnatural process of social justice doesn't encourage balance growth. It forces growth against nature. And that comes from the will of adults.

Barry

[qwazse]

46 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

I can just imagine the outrage (rightfully so) if someone were to come on here and say " What our pack really needs is some good Den Moms to make us snacks and clean up after us. Sure, us men could do our own cooking and cleaning, but we really don't want to." 

We're teaching life skills and part of that is self-reliance. Relying or expecting someone else to do it just because they're a certain gender is counter-productive.

It would be wrong to be outraged. In parts of America ... unless it involves charcoal or mesquite ... men are not to be making snacks or cleaning up after. We may disagree, but only on subjective grounds. Some folks have found certain efficiencies when sexes live up to assigned expectations. When we're working with volunteers, there is no winning strategy that will change that unless in a given unit a female is obviously the best choice for direct-contact leader and the men would do better assisting her, and the men work at the chocolate factory.

On the other hand, Son #2 was the go-to guy when anyone in his class needed a cake baked or when his buddies (of either sex) needed someone to cook up breakfast. And, when daughter-in-law was still in training, it was clear that Son #1 was the better cook. They are evenly matched now, and I've seen him chased out of the kitchen to go watch the game on a regular basis.

Finally, if you like to taste the chili in your chili, pray that the lot of them -- including Mrs. Q -- are otherwise occupied and I take over the spice rack.

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

I certainly can't disagree, but we also have to be mindful of an over reaction in the other direction because that is just as harmful. In scouting, balance isn't that boys and girls are equal in their abilities, balance is that living the Oath and Law encourages scouts to live to the best of their abilities. If scouts observe adults living the actions of oath and law toward each other, then everything else will balance out because respecting the best abilities of each other is living the oath and law.

My main objection to bringing troop age girls into the troops is that mix genders will take away from what boys are supposed gain from the program. Girls by their nature are more organized and better with follow through. In the patrol method environment, the nature of girls is unbalanced and will take away the opportunities to force the boys to practice those unnatural skills. I've heard a few voices of skepticism of that reasoning, but the number one complaint from Venturing adult leaders is that the boys don't engage very well on the planning and management of the crew. Girls naturally take up the slack. Strangely, many adults use that observation to brag about girls. While I believe that money drove the BSA to bring girls into the program, I believe illusion of social justice is more on the minds of many volunteers. OK, fine. But, the unnatural process of social justice doesn't encourage balance growth. It forces growth against nature. And that comes from the will of adults.

Barry

Agreed.  As volunteers, we should be mindful that as we're giving all these kids equal opportunities to grow.  It's most certainly not about creating a culture in Scouting that promotes one gender over another.

My suggestion is that we simply worry less about gender.  Try to strike it from your vocabulary.  If you find that you're starting to say "we need a dad to ..." or "we need a mom to ..." or "the boys in the Crew ..." or "the girls in the Crew ..." ask yourself what you're really trying to say and simply say that.  We had a recent example where we needed some adults to clear a small area at our CO.  One of the female leaders said "we need some dads with chainsaws to come clear the space."  What we really wanted to say was "we need some people who have and are experienced with chainsaws to come clear the space."  The second is really what we wanted anyways - we just were conditioned to make that connection with dads.  It takes a little practice at first, but over time it's very easy.

A similar concept exists with female and male youth.  If you're looking at a crew and notice that girls are doing all the organizing the issue really isn't that girls are naturally better organizers than boys.  The issue is that in your crew you've got a significant part of the team that isn't engaged in or leading the Crew planning.  Take a look at changing that without getting too hung up on whether it's a boy thing or girl thing.  Of course, any parent or leader who starts to talk about how great it is that the girls in the crew are leading everything sets themselves up for the same comments I've made above.

Again, none of this is about social justice or fighting nature.  It's simply about letting kids be kids, to explore their interests, and to develop their skills. 

[David CO]

37 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

  It's simply about letting kids be kids

That is exactly my feeling.  At my school, the boys and girls seem to naturally segregate themselves (in the lunchroom. playground, hallways, etc.).  It's only when the adults assign the kids, do they work in coed groups.  If we let the kids be kids, we would still have separate boys and girls youth programs.

[TMSM]

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

We had a recent example where we needed some adults to clear a small area at our CO.  One of the female leaders said "we need some dads with chainsaws to come clear the space.

How many moms showed up with chainsaws?

 

[David CO]

1 hour ago, TMSM said:

How many moms showed up with chainsaws?

 

That's a recurring nightmare of mine.  Moms with chainsaws.