Parents at PLC Planning Meetings

[mmhardy]

Got to bounce this one off you....

 

I dropped my son of at the yearly PLC meeting. Here is where the boys look at the year ahead and plan activities for the program year. Back in the day when I was SPL this consisted of the SM, ASM and the boy leadership.

 

Imagine the old geezer shock that I had when I walk back to the conference room to see half the seats at the table filled by adult committee members. I told my son I would see him in about an hour. I got a few glares as I left.

 

In an hour the meeting was still going on so I grabbed a chair sat in the back and observed. In all fairness the boys got the only vote and lead the discussions. But more then once the parents chimed in. I got the distinct feeling that some of the boys didn't speak out because mom or dad was in attendance. Everything seemed to run smooth. Im sure that it will be another successful and active year.

 

I'm I being over sensitive or is this norm now-a-days. Just need a level check.

 

[EagleInKY]

Most I know of are as you remembered them. The only adults at ours are me (SM) and a couple of ASMs. The Committee Chair was there for part of it this year.

 

Because we're a young troop, I end up having to push a lot of the conversation. But I try to do it in a way that - in the end - they make the decision.

 

After they complete their plan, we give it to the activities chair, who does some research to regarding estimated costs, etc. The plan then goes to the committee for review.

[KoreaScouter]

It's all legal, since all Scouting activities are open to parents. We did our last PPC in several two-hour sessions, and many of our Green Bars' parents stayed rather than drive back and forth. The lads were up front, the parents in the back of the room, and the parents just watched. IMO, their opportunity for input is when the proposed plan is presented to the committee.

 

I don't know why a parent's presence at a PPC would inhibit a boy's input. Selection of a monthly theme, or where to go camping, shouldn't cause any tension between a boy and his mom. It sure doesn't stifle any of our boys!

 

KS

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

>>I don't know why a parent's presence at a PPC would inhibit a boy's input.

[EagleInKY]

KS - You are certainly right that it is legal to have adults around (the "no closed meetings" rule). But, that doesn't mean it is a good idea to have them around. At troop meetings, about 1/2 of our parents just "hang out", instead of driving back home. They tend to stay out of the way. However, I've noticed that the boys are often more shy about speaking up if they are in the big room where the parents are located. To Barry's point, kids will naturally yield to adults authority or even presence.

 

Barry - You have an interesting approach. I'll share it with our boys. Our next planning session is coming up and the process we plan to use is to first have the PLs meet with their patrols to generate ideas. We'll set their expectations as to the goals the troop has for the coming year. While the patrols are meeting, I'll be meeting with the SPL and ASPL to come up with some ideas that we may want to use to get the ideas going. After that, the PLC will get together and share their ideas to develop the annual program. The PLC meeting is modeled after an approach someone had posted on this forum. It worked pretty well for us last time.

[FScouter]

Boys dont know a whole lot about planning a calendar of events for an entire year. If you let them stumble through it, the result will be a whole lot less than perfect.

 

Adults have much more experience and can do a much better job, and get it done in a lot less time. Plus the boys will be just as happy with the end result, maybe more so.

 

So, if our objective is to plan the perfect calendar of events in the least amount of time, the adults need to jump in and take over.

 

If on the other hand our objective is to train young men to become adults, and to get their feet wet in working together as a team on a difficult project, then we MUST hang back and let them do it. Sometimes we forget what Scouting is about.

 

[Rooster7]

Yes, those wicked parents...always getting in the way, always trying to teach children something, always acting as if they have wisdom...just makes my blood boil when they show up at meetings.

[FScouter]

Teaching and guiding does not a wicked parent make. Butting in and taking over does.

 

If the objective of the parent intervention is to expedite the planning process, that seems to be more like taking over than in teaching and guiding.

[Rooster7]

Okay, now that my sarcasm is out and done with, let me explain. I understand and agree with the philosophy of learning by your mistakes. But this can be over done. That is to say, there is nothing wrong with adults providing their wisdom and advice any parent should feel welcome to do so. Its when the adults force their opinions into becoming a reality that the Scouts have a legitimate beef. Or another fair complaint is when adults dominate the meeting. But both of these transgressions can be resolved without barring parents participation. Someone once told me that if you show enough faith in a parent, and take the time to explain things at their level, parents can show an amazing amount of maturity. Oops, I did it again sorry. ;-)

 

FScouter, I agree. I harbor a little resentment towards some Scouters (no one in particular) that treat parents as if theyre the enemy. Ive seen this attitude from a lot folks involved in youth programs - sporting clubs, Scouts, even church youth groups. Conversely, I have a lot of respect for those folks that work with parents. After all, a Scouts biggest advocate is probably his mom or dad. I believe we need to cut each other a little slack and remember 1) parents should be treated like the adults they are, and 2) ultimately, we all want the same thing whats best for the kids.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[mdutch]

Rooster7,

One thing that you are forgeting, is that scouts like to use the time that they spend at scouts, as a break from being around there parents. While some adult supervision is required most scouts (atleast in my troop) prefer if it is not there parents.

 

Eric

[Rooster7]

You said, scouts like to use the time that they spend at scouts, as a break from being around their parents. I feel we are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy by catering to this presumption. Even if a Scout or two sought this so-called break from their parent - Is it healthy to adopt that as the standard and apply it to the troop? We should be encouraging and fostering better relationships between parent and child, not accommodating an attitude that seeks to separate them.

 

In a typical day, it seems to me that boys (and girls for that matter) spend about 8 to 10 hours sleeping, 6 hours at school, and at least another 2 to 4 hours watching TV and playing with their peers. Now thats just a baseline. Throw in extracurricular activities such as organized sports, band, choir, karate, dance, church youth group, etc. and Id say most kids have something to do 24 x 7, most of which does not include a parent. Given the aforementioned, I say Scouts need Scouting as a break from being around their parents, like they need a hole in their head.

 

Devotion to family being one of the three primary values that the BSA emphasizes, I would hope that most leaders try to accommodate parental participation, not discourage it. As I said (and as you might guess - this is a pet-peeve of mine), parents should not be treated as outsiders who must be tolerated. They should be treated as partners who have a vested interest, with wisdom, knowledge, and energy, which the troop can draw upon as a resource. When it is made known that parents are not welcomed to attend PLCs and/or allowed to participate by offering advice, I feel we do our Scouts a huge disservice. Not only is the wrong message sent to the boys, but an invaluable resource is cavalierly dismissed.

 

The boy run philosophy will remain intact so long as leaders encourage the boys to draw upon the advice of parents like any other resource. As a group, they should weigh the validity of it, consider the benefits and risks, and then use a fair and logical process to determine a course of action.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[EagleInKY]

I don't harbor any resentment to parental involvement. In fact, I encourage it as much as I can. We're going camping today - 14 boys, 8 parents. I love that kind of ratio. But, do they sometimes get in the way? Sure they do. Do I have to sometimes ask them to back off and let the boys figure it out? You bet. I'd rather have then around, and back them off when I need to, than to have them not involved with the program at all.

 

That said, I still prefer there to be minimal adult participation in the PLC process. This is a great training ground for the boys. If the parents are too involved - or especially if they take over - the boys lose out on one of the most valuable experiences in scouting.

[Eagledad]

Hi all

 

>>When it is made known that parents are not welcomed to attend PLCs and/or allowed to participate by offering advice, I feel we do our Scouts a huge disservice.

[mmhardy]

Wow great dialog.

 

I don't want to appear that I'm anti parent involvement. Geez I'm a parent and a Scouter (2 in BS, 1 Webelo). I love everything about the program. However I feel that my boys would be better served by me if I allowed them to express their own leadership without me around.

 

I told both of my own boys when I volunteered to be up at summer camp that I would not be looking for them, hawking them, nor directly "coaching" them. I wanted them to go to another Scouter if they needed something signed off or to review a skill. I wanted them to be "boys" and have exposure to other adults. I honestly didn't see them much except at mess hall. They, and I, had a great time.

 

I'll say one last thing then sit down. It was noted a couple of times that the boys will not know how to set up a program plan without parental involvement. No question guidance is needed...sometimes. But wouldn't feel great if you knew that your PL son advanced an idea, outlined it, and sold it to the troop all on his own without any comment from a parent? To me that's what Scouting is about. After all who is the program for!

[KoreaScouter]

I'm the father of a teenage boy, and while there are certainly things he would be "uncomfortable" discussing with me in the room, nothing related to Scouting is on that list. And, the same is true for all the Green Bars in our Troop. It's their program, they drive it, and they know it. In our troop, I think peer pressure is a bigger human dynamic with them than parental influence is, when it comes to PLC decisions: "...C'mon, man, we went there twice last year..." and hands will start to go down.

 

A "no parents" rule is unenforceable if a parent knows BSA policy and presses-to-test...although you might be able to get away with a gag rule.

 

I've experienced parental interference to the point where it affects the program delivery for the youths. This is a time for a SM or CC to play the role of union steward on behalf of the lads. I always try to start at the low end of the conflict spectrum, but I'll escalate as high as I need to to get the behavior change that's needed, short of fisticuffs. Yes, I've publicly embarrassed parents who were behaving boorishly, but as an exception, not the rule. And, in fairness, boorish behavior is the exception, not the rule in my experience. Mostly, it's well-meaning parents who are accustomed to things being "smooth" and "efficient" in their work, family, and leisure activities and want to see the same in their son's Scout Troop. I go out of my way to make sure our parents know that when adolescent boys are learning to lead, to plan, and to think abstactly, the process is in no danger of being called smooth, efficient, or slick. And, those aren't our aims anyway. I think they get it.

 

A fair number of our parents are also registered as leaders, so they have a good idea of what everyone's role is. The ones who aren't also leaders, seem to watch what goes on the same way Jane Goodall observed groups of chimps in the wild -- with a sense of bewildered admiration: "...I'm not sure I understand it all, but they're enjoying themselves and it seems to be working...".

 

If you go back and read MMHardy's original post, you'll see straight away that committee members were at the table with the Green Bars at their PPC. I don't know why you'd do that, but if you do, for whatever reason, it sets up an awkward situation and that's what they got.

 

KS