Your problems with JTE

[dkurtenbach]

10 hours ago, ParkMan said:

We as Scouters don't so much need another plaque to tell us who the best troop is - we generally know that stuff.

Need 'em?  Nope.  Want 'em?  Oh yeah.  The other troops in the district aren't the only audience.

[Jameson76]

Honestly do any actual Scouts (or Cubs / Venturers / Explorers ) really care if they are Bronze - Silver - Gold - Chartreuse??  Do they even know if they are Bronze - Silver - Gold - Chartreuse??  Do they even know what JTE is??

My point is that JTE seems to be (is??) adult leaders reporting things to other adults leaders who then report to other adult leaders who then report to more adult leaders.  

The intent is good and at it's heart there can be benefit.  In practice it's a form that unit leaders fill out as another leader finalizes the recharter form(s).  One more piece of paperwork.

[ParkMan]

2 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

Need 'em?  Nope.  Want 'em?  Oh yeah.  The other troops in the district aren't the only audience.

Ok - I'll take your word on it.

I actually find the evolution of this topic kind of odd.  We started out going through all the limitations of JTE and are now discussing how if we made it a competition, people would participate more.  Guess I'm more interested in really addressing the issue that JTE is designed for than trying to find ways to promote it.

I'm reminded that JTE feels a lot to me like other BSA initiatives.  That the BSA needs to find a way to manage units.  We see it from national, I see it from the council professionals too.  But, in reality this is all backwards - the BSA shouldn't be trying to manage units.  The BSA should be looking at how they can best support units.  Getting units to become more successful involves personal investment of time to understand the personal goals of units, to help their leaders grow, become excited about Scouting, to have a desire to grow.  You can't achieve this through a form or by assessments from council.  It's people investing time and working with people.  Yet, if they don't want to grow, then the BSA needs to find a way to start a second unit down the street.  

This is why I find stuff like JTE, online training, etc. - the wrong answer.  This is why I find ideas like empowering the district/council with the ability to force change in a unit - the wrong answer.

 

[dkurtenbach]

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

Honestly do any actual Scouts (or Cubs / Venturers / Explorers ) really care if they are Bronze - Silver - Gold - Chartreuse??  Do they even know if they are Bronze - Silver - Gold - Chartreuse??  Do they even know what JTE is??

My point is that JTE seems to be (is??) adult leaders reporting things to other adults leaders who then report to other adult leaders who then report to more adult leaders.  

The intent is good and at it's heart there can be benefit.  In practice it's a form that unit leaders fill out as another leader finalizes the recharter form(s).  One more piece of paperwork.

Scouts will care if the adults in the unit treat it like it matters.  But for the time being, it only matters to the district folks and above.  For unit leaders currently, it is just one more piece of paperwork.

[dkurtenbach]

11 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Ok - I'll take your word on it.

I actually find the evolution of this topic kind of odd.  We started out going through all the limitations of JTE and are now discussing how if we made it a competition, people would participate more.  Guess I'm more interested in really addressing the issue that JTE is designed for than trying to find ways to promote it.

I'm reminded that JTE feels a lot to me like other BSA initiatives.  That the BSA needs to find a way to manage units.  We see it from national, I see it from the council professionals too.  But, in reality this is all backwards - the BSA shouldn't be trying to manage units.  The BSA should be looking at how they can best support units.  Getting units to become more successful involves personal investment of time to understand the personal goals of units, to help their leaders grow, become excited about Scouting, to have a desire to grow.  You can't achieve this through a form or by assessments from council.  It's people investing time and working with people.  Yet, if they don't want to grow, then the BSA needs to find a way to start a second unit down the street.  

This is why I find stuff like JTE, online training, etc. - the wrong answer.  This is why I find ideas like empowering the district/council with the ability to force change in a unit - the wrong answer.

I don't disagree with you.  But JTE -- while crude and limited -- is the system we have now.  So, rather than waste it by keeping it as just one more piece of paperwork, is there some way we can use JTE to, in your words, "[get] units to become more successful . . .to help their leaders grow, become excited about Scouting, to have a desire to grow."  I'm suggesting that if we can get units motivated to use it in some fashion, that's a win -- however minor.

[ParkMan]

11 minutes ago, dkurtenbach said:

I don't disagree with you.  But JTE -- while crude and limited -- is the system we have now.  So, rather than waste it by keeping it as just one more piece of paperwork, is there some way we can use JTE to, in your words, "[get] units to become more successful . . .to help their leaders grow, become excited about Scouting, to have a desire to grow."  I'm suggesting that if we can get units motivated to use it in some fashion, that's a win -- however minor.

Ok - I can get behind that - to a point.  I do think we have to be very upfront that this is what we're talking about.  JTE is a pretty mediocre tool, but it is a tool.  So leveraging the tools we have to the best of their potential is good.

Yet, I think we have to be careful that we don't continue to further the belief that JTE is the desired way to accomplish these goals.  

[DuctTape]

2 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Ok - I can get behind that - to a point.  I do think we have to be very upfront that this is what we're talking about.  JTE is a pretty mediocre tool, but it is a tool.  So leveraging the tools we have to the best of their potential is good.

Yet, I think we have to be careful that we don't continue to further the belief that JTE is the desired way to accomplish these goals.  

or that Gold actually represents Excellence. I see that not getting gold means serious deficiencies in at least the basics. Like a restaurant passing their health inspection. It doesn't mean the food in any good, just that the place shouldn't be shut down.

[Treflienne]

Slightly different perspective here:  brand new unit,  brand new scouts,  brand new scouters.   The JTE came across as a helpful handy list of things troops should generally be doing.   Even to someone new like me, it was obvious that a high JTE score deesn't guarantee a terrific unit -- but rather that if there are areas in which a unit scores really poorly,  it is worth considering the reasons why.

 

[TAHAWK]

The JTM scores are largely irrelevant to Scouting, which, for example, presumes: 1) actual use of the Patrol Method, including most program time acting as patrol teams; 2) planning BY Scouts, as opposed to planning "involving Scouts," whatever that means; 3) youth active in Scouting program, vs, merely "registered" [$$$$ for BSA]; 4) service measured by service rendered or, at least number of Scout-hours of time devoted, vs. meaningless numbers of "projects," each "participated in" by as few as a single Scout or single unit adult;  and 5) "weekend camping" out-of-doors for a defined "weekend," vs. an indefinite period indoors doing nothing in particular.  

[CynicalScouter]

Since there was a recent influx of JTE criticism I thought I'd revive this.

Just as a reminder/starting point, this is the JTE scorecard for Troops for 2021

EDIT: I can't format it to work, here's the link https://www.scouting.org/awards/journey-to-excellence/unit/

Journey to Excellence uses a balanced approach to measure performance.  It guides program planning before the year begins, monitors activities for continuous improvement during the year, and recognizes performance at the end of the year.  In planning your strategy, use actual numbers from the previous year to guide your performance improvement goal planning.  The period for measuring performance will be the calendar year.
Planning and Budget Measures
1	The troop has a program plan and budget that is reviewed at all troop committee meetings, and the troop follows BSA policies relating to fundraising and fiscal management as found on the Unit Money-Earning Application form and any other publication that the council has developed for fundraising and fiscal management.  A meeting is held with youth leaders where they are involved in developing the plan for the next program year.  The troop's program plan should be shared with the unit commissioner.  Separate troops for males and females under the same chartered organization may have a shared unit committee.   Committee meetings may be held remotely.
Membership Measures
2	The troop has a growth plan to serve the diversity of our community and conducts a formal recruiting event.  On December 31, 2021, the troop has an increase in the number of youth members as compared to the number registered on December 31, 2020.  A membership growth plan template can be found at www.scouting.org/membership.  The troop has an up-to-date pin on the "Be a Scout" website.  Given current challenges, holding formal recruiting events may not be possible.  Bronze may be achieved by developing and implementing a recruiting plan involving direct personal invitations for youth to join.
3	Number of youth members on the most recent charter renewal (A) divided by the number of youth registered at the end of the prior charter year (B) minus any age-outs (C). Total = (A) / (B-C).  Age-outs are youth who are too old to reregister as Scouts. If the troop has a December charter, use the one expiring on December 31, 2020; otherwise use the one expiring during 2021.
4	Hold at least two activities with a pack or Webelos den, and recruit new Webelos Scouts into the troop.  Den chiefs are provided to one or more Cub Scout dens.  Virtual gatherings are acceptable.
Program Measures
5	Total number of Scouts advancing at least one rank (  Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, Eagle) during the calendar year (A), divided by the number of youth registered at the end of the year (B).  Advancement = (A) / (B).  The troop is encouraged to use Scoutbook to track each individual's advancements.
6	Conduct short-term (at least one overnight) campouts throughout the year.
7	Number of Scouts who attend any in-council or out-of-council long-term summer camp (of at least five nights), high-adventure experience, or jamboree, or serve on camp staff within the past year, divided by the Scout membership on June 30, 2021.  Youth attending long-term specialty camps such as NYLT or STEM are also counted.  Alternatives that spread the camping nights over multiple experiences may be included.  Virtual alternatives are acceptable. These include virtual camping programs and other remote activities.
8	The troop participates in service projects during the year and enters them on the Service Hours website or through Scoutbook. The projects may be completed as joint projects with other organizations. At least one project must benefit the chartered organization.  Service projects may include home-centered efforts providing they serve others outside the home.
9	The troop is separated into patrols and each patrol has an elected patrol leader. If the troop has more than one patrol, there is an elected senior patrol leader. If the troop has more than one patrol, the PLC meets at least four times each year. The troop holds patrol leader training each year, and youth have the opportunity to participate in advanced training.   PLC meetings may be held remotely.
Volunteer Leadership Measures
10	The troop has a Scoutmaster, an assistant, and a committee of at least three members.  Ideally, the chartered organization representative should not be dual registered as one of the committee members.  Separate troops for males and females under the same chartered organization may have a shared unit committee. The troop conducts courts of honor where youth are recognized and program plans are shared with parents.  Courts of honors may be done remotely.
11	All leaders have completed youth protection training.  Scoutmaster and 60% of the assistants have completed position-specific training or, if new, will complete within three months of joining. Two-thirds of active committee members (including chartered organization representative) have completed position-specific training. For Gold, one leader must have attended an advanced training course involving a total of 5 days or more, such as Wood Badge, Summit or Philmont Training Center, at some point in their Scouting tenure.
Scoring the troop's performance:  To determine the troop's performance level, you will use the above information to determine the points earned for each of the 11 criteria and then add those individual point scores to determine a composite score. Count only the highest point total achieved in any one criterion. Bronze level requires earning at least 525 points in at least 7 criteria, Silver level requires earning points in at least 8 criteria and 750 points, and Gold level requires earning points in at least 8 criteria, meeting at least bronze standards in either short-term or long-term camping, and earning at least 1,000 total points.

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

Bronze Level	Have an annual program plan and budget adopted by the troop committee.
Silver Level	Achieve Bronze, plus troop conducts a planning meeting involving youth leaders for the following program year.
Gold Level	Achieve Silver, plus troop committee meets at least six times during the year to review program plans and finances.
Bronze Level	Have a membership growth plan that includes a recruit-ment activity or use a personalized invitation method and have current pin on beascout.org.
Silver Level	Achieve Bronze, and either increase youth members or have at least 25 members.
Gold Level	Achieve Silver, and either increase youth members by 5% or have at least 35 members.
Bronze Level	Reregister 75% of eligible members.
Silver Level	Reregister 80% of eligible members.
Gold Level	Reregister 85% of eligible members.
Bronze Level	With a pack or Webelos den, hold two joint activities (live or virtual).
Silver Level	Achieve Bronze, plus recruit two Webelos Scouts.
Gold Level	Achieve Bronze, plus provide at least one den chief to a pack and recruit five Webelos Scouts.
Bronze Level	40% of Scouts advance one rank during the year.
Silver Level	50% of Scouts advance one rank during the year.
Gold Level	60% of Scouts advance one rank during the year.
Bronze Level	Conduct four short-term overnight campouts.
Silver Level	Conduct seven short-term overnight campouts.
Gold Level	Conduct nine short-term overnight campouts.
Bronze Level	The troop participates in a long-term camp.
Silver Level	60% of Scouts attend a long-term camp.
Gold Level	70% of Scouts attend a long-term camp.
Bronze Level	Participate in three service projects and enter the hours on the JTE website.
Silver Level	Participate in four service projects and enter the hours on the JTE website.
Gold Level	Participate in five service projects and enter the hours on the JTE website.
Bronze Level	The troop has patrols, and each has a patrol leader. There is an SPL, if more than one patrol. The PLC meets at least four times a year.
Silver Level	Achieve Bronze, plus PLC meets at least six times.  The troop conducts patrol leader training.
Gold Level	Achieve Silver, plus PLC meets at least ten times. At least one Scout has attended an advanced training course, such as NYLT or Order of the Arrow Conference.
Bronze Level	Have at least one registered assistant Scoutmaster.
Silver Level	Achieve Bronze, plus the troop holds two courts of honor, where troop plans are reviewed with parents.
Gold Level	Achieve Bronze, plus the troop holds three courts of honor, where troop plans are reviewed with parents.
Bronze Level	Scoutmaster or an assistant Scoutmaster has completed position-specific training.
Silver Level	Achieve Bronze, plus the Scoutmaster and 60% of assistants have completed position-specific training or, if new, will complete within three months of joining.
Gold Level	Achieve Silver, plus two-thirds of active committee members have completed position-specific training and at least one person has attended an advanced training course involving a total of at least five days.

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[InquisitiveScouter]

@TAHAWK,

Sorry, don't know how to drag your comments over to here...

I do like the metrics they have, but I agree that JTE should be modified, and think that it is a bit off the mark...

Never said there wasn't room for improvement

And, there is some Patrol measurement there...

Maybe focus on that one...how would you improve it?

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

Bronze Level

 

The troop has patrols, and each has a patrol leader. There is an SPL, if more than one patrol. The PLC meets at least four times a year.

 

Silver Level

 

Achieve Bronze, plus PLC meets at least six times.  The troop conducts patrol leader training.

 

Gold Level

 

Achieve Silver, plus PLC meets at least ten times. At least one Scout has attended an advanced training course, such as NYLT or Order of the Arrow Conference.

I'd remove that last part about Youth Training and make that a separate section all together.

[CynicalScouter]

59 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

@TAHAWK,

Sorry, don't know how to drag your comments over to here...

I do like the metrics they have, but I agree that JTE should be modified, and think that it is a bit off the mark...

Never said there wasn't room for improvement

And, there is some Patrol measurement there...

Maybe focus on that one...how would you improve it?

I'd remove that last part about Youth Training and make that a separate section all together.

Right, I don't fully understand the complaint against JTE OTHER THAN it's existence.

In other words, if you don't think there should be any performance metrics AT ALL for units, fine. I get that. "You can't quantify what we do." That's an argument I guess.

BUT if you accept the premise that there should be unit metrics, I have a hard time seeing what is wrong with the ones National picked.

W.E. Deming is alleged to have said "What gets measured gets done." Drucker's version was "What gets measured gets managed." Both get to the same point; performance is a matter of measurement.

And if we agree performance matters and that while there are some amorphous, nebulous things (What is the metric for "Scout Spirit"?) some things are quantifiable.

Edited January 5, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[TAHAWK]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

@TAHAWK,

Sorry, don't know how to drag your comments over to here...

I do like the metrics they have, but I agree that JTE should be modified, and think that it is a bit off the mark...

Never said there wasn't room for improvement

And, there is some Patrol measurement there...

Maybe focus on that one...how would you improve it?

I'd remove that last part about Youth Training and make that a separate section all together.

There are JTE points for having patrols and having PLC meeting, but no points for patrols doing anything as patrols, for patrol leaders making any decisions, for the leaders - Scouts - being elected, or for the bulk of time in Scouting being in a patrol context - as required by Scouting - even said to this day in Scoutmaster Training materials to be required.

How to bring JTE back to Scouting:

I posted suggestions,  apparently in the wrong place,  

1ST:  measure the things that BSA no longer cares about enough to actually do anything to promote them -  esp, but not exclusively, the two most important official BSA Scouting "methods," long neglected:  Patrol Method; outdoor program.

2nd: have any competent person(s) assign points to things that should be measured to reflect progress to adequacy, which is a distant goal at present.  Opinions may legitimately differ as to allocation pf points

The following are not assigned points in JTE: but should be:

- patrol and troop leaders democratically elected by the Scouts;

- significant, separate, active patrol program, including outdoor program; led by respective PLs;

- instruction of skills and for advancement primarily in the patrol context, and only occasionally by the troop;

- advancement requirements passed in the first instance primarily in the patrol context;

- every patrol member appointed by respective PL to a functioning job;

- Scouts democratically planning the program of the patrols and, through their representatives the elected PLs, the program of the troop, not just being "involved" in some unspecified way; 

- SPL leading the troop-level program and the planning thereof.; and

- SPL presents annual troop program to Troop Committee and asks for their support, which they should be very reluctant not to give. SM attends to support the SPL.

- active troop outdoor program, including one long term camp.  The long term campout may, but need not, be camping at council or BSA camps.  For troops not camping at all at present, and I know of several, goal for initial recognition level needs to be modest.

I have related here my experuience with the local troop run by the "Scoutmaster of the Year" whose "patrol leaders" could not: 1)  give the name of the patrol each was leading on paper; 2) name the Scouts who were members of "their" patrol; 3) describe even vaguely any issue on which any one of them had voted in the "SPL conferences" run by the Scoutmaster ( who sat at the head of the table).  They had been awarded the PL patches for purposes of "positions of Responsibility" to facilitate the Eagle mill that the troop emphatically was.  ("Scoutinf for fun.  Eagle for Life.") I soldiered on as an SA for five years before not renewing.  In that time, the troop had two outdoor weekend campouts, and received "Gold" JTE each year, despite a 50% loss of registered Scouts each year that it was not worse. 

The Troop Committee of thsi troop,, having been carefully kept away from all training - all training - by the Scoutmaster,  felt the SM was the beau ideal of a Scoutmaster.  They retested every advancement candidate on each rank requirement at his Board-of -Review (THAT was why the CC was hauling all that rope into the BOR room.).  The blind being led by the blind.   The UC for the troop was the same Scouter for all those years and appeared only at the semi-annual mass Eagle courts-of-honor to bask in the reflected glory.  As the troop led the district in fund-raising for council, there was no point in seeking help for reform. 

Change is needed for such a trevesty to be appluaded by an awartd for "Excellence."

Who knows.  if tried, Scouting might be a big hit.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

38 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

I have related here my experuience with the local troop run by the "Scoutmaster of the Year" whose "patrol leaders" could not: 1)  give the name of the patrol each was leading on paper; 2) name the Scouts who were members of "their" patrol; 3) describe even vaguely any issue on which any one of them had voted in the "SPL conferences" run by the Scoutmaster ( who sat at the head of the table).  They had been awarded the PL patches for purposes of "positions of Responsibility" to facilitate the Eagle mill that the troop emphatically was.  ("Scoutinf for fun.  Eagle for Life.") I soldiered on as an SA for five years before not renewing.  In that time, the troop had two outdoor weekend campouts, and received "Gold" JTE each year, despite a 50% loss of registered Scouts each year that it was not worse. 

The Troop Committee of thsi troop,, having been carefully kept away from all training - all training - by the Scoutmaster,  felt the SM was the beau ideal of a Scoutmaster.  They retested every advancement candidate on each rank requirement at his Board-of -Review (THAT was why the CC was hauling all that rope into the BOR room.).  The blind being led by the blind.   The UC for the troop was the same Scouter for all those years and appeared only at the semi-annual mass Eagle courts-of-honor to bask in the reflected glory.  As the troop led the district in fund-raising for council, there was no point in seeking help for reform. 

Change is needed for such a trevesty to be appluaded by an awartd for "Excellence."

Hey, I know some Troops like that around here! xp

Sad, and thanks for giving us that picture of how badly things can be run...