Your problems with JTE

[qwazse]

4 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Insufficient Prime Numbers!

Any other point allocation is sub-prime.

Just now, Treflienne said:

I agree.  @qwazse, what do you have against the number 2?    And what was "1" doing in that list?

Patterns deserve to be broken.

I was toying with allocating points via Fibonacci sequence.

Anything that messes with those 100 point increments suits me.

[RememberSchiff]

22 hours ago, mashmaster said:

I think JTE is fine, it is helpful to hold units accountable at some level.  And lets be honest, how many units really care about what level they get?

I would like to see it more like Sea Scouts.  We have a National Flagship program that the Ships submit a very comprehensive yearly review of their program (the youth do it , not the adults).  They select a top Ship and a small set of other runner-ups.  JTE is adult run and doesn't have information, National flagship is much more comprehensive.  The youth see where they are doing well and not doing well, so they get the adults to do their jobs.

I looked into this. I found some surprises - the National Flagship came from BoatUS, an outside group, and uses JTE  albeit as an initial qualifier. 

Hmm,  I like  troop  drills, competitions,  Troop Scribe keeping a Troop Log...  a rising tide lifts all boats.

https://seascout.org/national-flagship/

Edited December 19, 2019 by RememberSchiff

[mashmaster]

4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

I looked into this. I found some surprises - the National Flagship came from BoatUS, an outside group, and uses JTE  albeit as an initial qualifier. 

Hmm,  I like  troop  drills, competitions,  Troop Scribe keeping a Troop Log...  a rising tide lifts all boats.

https://seascout.org/national-flagship/

It really is a pretty good system.  You'll see the Adult driven activities like JTE, Scout Leader development account for a maximum of 15 points.  The other 85 points are all about real things that the unit should be doing and 15 points alone are based on the fact that the youth prepare and give perspective to the application.  

[dkurtenbach]

On 12/17/2019 at 7:31 PM, mds3d said:

I am curious.  I see people here complain about JTE, but it is rarely about specific things.  What are your complaints about the program?   Is it the targets themselves? Is gold too easy or too hard? Are you still bitter it isn't silver at the top 😉? 

My complaint is that JTE is used as a form of competition at the district, council, and national levels (thus the quantitative performance goals), but is not used that way at the unit level.  It should be.  Sure, the particular quantitative performance goals for units are few and crude.  But they are something.  If JTE score was actually competitive among units, JTE could get each unit thinking about its own program in comparison to both an objective standard and to what other units are doing.  Put another way, treating JTE as a real competition among units would create a minimum performance standard for all units that would benefit Scouts.

[MattR]

I don't know, @dkurtenbach, if the point is to help units improve their program, to be a teaching aid, making it competitive will just encourage units to game the system. Councils clearly game the system and for those that are struggling there's no incentive to help the units.

[dkurtenbach]

32 minutes ago, MattR said:

I don't know, @dkurtenbach, if the point is to help units improve their program, to be a teaching aid, making it competitive will just encourage units to game the system. Councils clearly game the system and for those that are struggling there's no incentive to help the units.

Sure, there will always be some units who act in an un-Scout-like manner.  But not all.  And district leaders have a pretty good idea about the accuracy of self-reported unit scores.  Because unit performance directly impacts district JTE scores, there will be plenty of incentive to help any unit that wants help.  The real problem units are those that are low-performing but aren't interested in improving and aren't interested in help or advice from outsiders.  

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

... making it competitive will just encourage units to game the system. ...

 

35 minutes ago, dkurtenbach said:

Sure, there will always be some units who act in an un-Scout-like manner.  But not all. ...

This is akin' to the argument for making all scouters take YPT every year. Some scouters -- maybe some in every unit -- will let it lapse over the two year requirement. But unless you can prove that scouters are a drag on a troop's YP if they lapse a couple of months prior to charter, or that this year has an abundance of new and useful material ... you're putting a drain on program for no good reason.

Some scouters (at whatever level) will game a system like JTE, and that is really frustrating to everyone. But, that's a poor reason for drawing everyone's attention away from those truly inspiring units.

[Eagledad]

36 minutes ago, qwazse said:

 

Some scouters (at whatever level) will game a system like JTE, and that is really frustrating to everyone. But, that's a poor reason for drawing everyone's attention away from those truly inspiring units.

I'm not sure what means; nobody from other units came asked us our JTE score, nor did I ever ask theirs. I'm not taking sides here, just posting my observations. But, are proposing a JTE Camporee? Nobody cheats at camporees. OK, there was those new girls troops.

Barry

[ParkMan]

Honestly - I seriously doubt anyone would even bother with a JTE competition.  We already have a JTE competition - it's called being the largest, most active troop in the district.

[dkurtenbach]

2 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Honestly - I seriously doubt anyone would even bother with a JTE competition.  We already have a JTE competition - it's called being the largest, most active troop in the district.

Which, if JTE was considered a competition among units, would result in recognition for the troop's JTE gold within the district (awards dinner, plaque), local newspaper article about the troop, and recognition from the council (letter and certificate from the Scout Executive, listing in council newsletter).  And every year the district would send out a list of district troops to each Webelos and Arrow of Light den leader and parent, with each troop's JTE level highlighted. 

And then we can start goosing up the JTE requirements a little bit at a time.

[qwazse]

36 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Honestly - I seriously doubt anyone would even bother with a JTE competition.  We already have a JTE competition - it's called being the largest, most active troop in the district.

How would you know that you're the largest, most active troop? Are you all the only gold unit? Suppose we divided your existing JTE score by the number of patrols in your troop ... could there be some smaller troop with a higher JTE per patrol ratio?  If the argument is there is too much in JTE that's out of the control of a patrol, then I think that's my answer to the OP.

But, adding to @dkurtenbach's point, JTE is just not something anyone wants to brag about. It's dimensions are not quirky enough for scouts to push them. With some of the data now track-able electronically, you can almost see the basis of your score in real time. But, it's not gonna answer one question: how many of your scouts are truly epic?

Let's be clear. I'm not saying JTE is a waste of time. But I go to orienteering club courses because they do the courtesy of posting my (abysmal) scores and times along with all of the other racers.

[PACAN]

If you know your unit the JTE form should take no more than 10 minutes to fill it out.

Districts want you to fill it out because it is one of the JTE items they get judged on. They don't necessarily do anything with the form except file it.

councils can get Gold if they are Silver points in all categories.  The 2020 form has a caveat about not counting LDS losses.

[qwazse]

28 minutes ago, PACAN said:

... The 2020 form has a caveat about not counting LDS losses.

Because brutal honesty is so unseemly these days.

[TAHAWK]

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

Because brutal honesty is so unseemly these days ... - since of 1972 and the Improved [sic] Scouting Program.

 

[ParkMan]

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

How would you know that you're the largest, most active troop? Are you all the only gold unit? Suppose we divided your existing JTE score by the number of patrols in your troop ... could there be some smaller troop with a higher JTE per patrol ratio?  If the argument is there is too much in JTE that's out of the control of a patrol, then I think that's my answer to the OP.

But, adding to @dkurtenbach's point, JTE is just not something anyone wants to brag about. It's dimensions are not quirky enough for scouts to push them. With some of the data now track-able electronically, you can almost see the basis of your score in real time. But, it's not gonna answer one question: how many of your scouts are truly epic?

Let's be clear. I'm not saying JTE is a waste of time. But I go to orienteering club courses because they do the courtesy of posting my (abysmal) scores and times along with all of the other racers.

When I saw "we", I didn't so much mean that our troop is the largest in the district.  I meant that within districts, there is an inherent understanding of who the big troops are and who the small troops are.  Who the active troops are and the inactive troops.  We as Scouters don't so much need another plaque to tell us who the best troop is - we generally know that stuff.