YPT required one year out to recharter?

[qwazse]

8 hours ago, ParkMan said:

... Regardless - we volunteers complain way too much about YPT.  My goodness, the BSA is on the verge of bankruptcy because prior leaders abused youth.  We're complaining because we might have to take it once a year? That's 90 minutes a year to reinforce the YPT rules.  That's not such a big imposition.

That's an imposition of one of the following ...

• That's one scout meeting. (Or 1.5 if you're on one hour a week.)
• Two merit badge counseling sessions.
• Reviewing the first aid manual.
• Time at the waterfront practicing drills.
• A car safety inspection.
• Shopping for a uniform for a needy scout.
• Dinner with your spouse.
• Roundable
• Two 45 minute drive listening to what life is like for your SPL.

If you really believe that scouters are forgetting their training after just one year, or that training is evolving so fast that everyone should take it yearly, that's one thing. But don't ever trivialize the imposition that it poses on a scouter. Multiply it by thousands of scouters and that's a real program that will not get done.

[ParkMan]

15 minutes ago, qwazse said:

That's an imposition of one of the following ...

• That's one scout meeting. (Or 1.5 if you're on one hour a week.)
• Two merit badge counseling sessions.
• Reviewing the first aid manual.
• Time at the waterfront practicing drills.
• A car safety inspection.
• Shopping for a uniform for a needy scout.
• Dinner with your spouse.
• Roundable
• Two 45 minute drive listening to what life is like for your SPL.

If you really believe that scouters are forgetting their training after just one year, or that training is evolving so fast that everyone should take it yearly, that's one thing. But don't ever trivialize the imposition that it poses on a scouter. Multiply it by thousands of scouters and that's a real program that will not get done.

Who's trivializing it?  It's probably a pretty good idea for a volunteer entrusted with the safety of people's kids to have to sit down once a year and go over the rules again.  It keeps the concepts and materials fresh in everyone's mind.  Of course I don't "need" it.  But, it does help serve as a reminder.  Even those somber videos with the stories about people who have been victimized serve as a refresher.  For work I have to yearly take all kinds of refresher trainings which are nothing more than last year's material rehashed.  It's done on purpose.

Let's be honest - the only reason councils are imposing this new "YPT valid for the full registration time" rule is because volunteers would let YPT expire and then not take it until they had to.  I'd see it every year.  As the year progressed, more YPT trainings would expire and no one would bother to take it until they had to for re-registration.  Then, it would take a committee chair chasing for a month or two for it to happen.  I'd sit in district training meetings, look at the numbers, and know full well that 100 emails out to remind people wouldn't do a thing until re-registration.  If volunteers and units were more proactive in keeping it up to date, then I doubt this would even be happening.  But, they are not - so we get more rules like this one.

I get that we're all busy.  YPT is online and can be split into four 20-30 minute segments.  Yes, I'm all for councils & national leaving volunteers alone so that they can do their work.  But, I just find all the protesting about YPT a little much given all the lawsuits over abuse of Scouts in our past.

[DuctTape]

easiest solution is for units to do YPT right before re-charter so everyone is on the same calendar. Do it at a December troop meeting. The scouts are doing their own thing, the adults can do theirs. Might be a good way to keep adults separated from the scouts a little more. By Dec, the patrols should be functioning quite well with SPL/ASPL helping the PLs. 

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

easiest solution is for units to do YPT right before re-charter so everyone is on the same calendar. Do it at a December troop meeting. The scouts are doing their own thing, the adults can do theirs. Might be a good way to keep adults separated from the scouts a little more. By Dec, the patrols should be functioning quite well with SPL/ASPL helping the PLs. 

@DuctTape that won't satisfy the bean-counting requirement of some councils because if you complete YPT on, say, December 23 of this year, that will mean next year when you go to recharter, all of those folks' YP will "only" be current for 11.7 months in 2021. The only two solutions:

• Divert twice as many scouter-hours from program to YPT than National claims to require.
• Have a New-Year's party for all scouters whose YPT may lapse next year, and train them at one minute past midnight. That way you get two full charter years before you are nagged by council about those scouters again. Your charter will go in late, but that's council's problem not yours.

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

... Let's be honest - the only reason councils are imposing this new "YPT valid for the full registration time" rule is because volunteers would let YPT expire and then not take it until they had to.  I'd see it every year.  As the year progressed, more YPT trainings would expire and no one would bother to take it until they had to for re-registration. ...

@ParkMan, I've seen the hassles put upon district scouters chasing down those who let they're YPT lapse, it is hard work, but so what? To make their lives easier, should they take man-hours hours per year away from the thousands of scouters who do their diligence every two years? All for the 100 scouters who they need to hound November through December? All they are doing is transferring load to unit leaders to address a problem that is rather small.

[MikeS72]

5 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

If National or Councils want confirmation every year the least they could do is just offer a recert test.  Pass the test and move on. No reason to sit through the same two hours of videos year after year after year.

Very true.  When I teach Red Cross First Aid/CPR/AED training, the initial class runs 5 - 6 hours, depending on the group I am working with.  Like YPT, that certification is good for 2 years.  At the end of that period, we do expect people to sit through the whole course again.  They take a re-certification test and demo the skills required, done in less than an hour.

[Jameson76]

6 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

If National or Councils want confirmation every year the least they could do is just offer a recert test.  Pass the test and move on. No reason to sit through the same two hours of videos year after year after year.

At least the former YPT training was in fact training.  To be compliant you need to do A B C, if you see non-compliance do X.  If you are aware of issues report to cops and council.

Now we have 90 minutes of agenda indoctrination to make sure we know that child abuse is bad.

[elitts]

40 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

At least the former YPT training was in fact training.  To be compliant you need to do A B C, if you see non-compliance do X.  If you are aware of issues report to cops and council.

Now we have 90 minutes of agenda indoctrination to make sure we know that child abuse is bad.

This was the part that made me crazy when I took the new training.  Do they actually think there are people out there who don't think child abuse is bad or that it happens and needs to be avoided?  That was just a horrible waste of my time and I actually felt the previous training was better at pointing out what form grooming can take and specific behaviors to watch out for.  Most of that was omitted now in favor of "I was victimized, child abuse is wrong" and "I work with child victims, child abuse is wrong" testimonials.

[ParkMan]

35 minutes ago, qwazse said:

@ParkMan, I've seen the hassles put upon district scouters chasing down those who let they're YPT lapse, it is hard work, but so what? To make their lives easier, should they take man-hours hours per year away from the thousands of scouters who do their diligence every two years? All for the 100 scouters who they need to hound November through December? All they are doing is transferring load to unit leaders to address a problem that is rather small.

We shouldn't keep passing the buck for things like this on to district or council Scouters.  If the unit leadership doesn't take some ownership and show it's important, then the unit Scouters won't see it as important.  Yes, no-one likes taking a course on YPT, but the unit leadership should be out there advocating that folks get it done.

Also - I don't see any real value in having district Scouters police this.  Our district training team consists of a small number of very seasoned Scouters.  They've all been through packs and troops and have had kids that have aged out.  They all know the program well and are a great resource.  Myself, I'd want those people out there finding ways to help units succeed.  Asking them to play YPT cop seems like a waste of that resource.

Really - this one is on units to own.  When it was "best effort" to get it done, many didn't.  Now, the councils are creating a compelling reason to have it done.  Yes - it stinks that we all have to do more now, but it's only happened because units showed they needed a reason to do it.

[Buggie]

2 minutes ago, elitts said:

Do they actually think there are people out there who don't think child abuse is bad or that it happens and needs to be avoided? 

I would say "yes"  because we still have issues with folk who have passed YPT and do it. Also folks who pass YPT and don't follow the process of vigilance and reporting, because <name> is such a good person, they couldn't possibly be doing that. 

the other day I exercised my YPT muscles by verifying a scouter who took other scouts home was following YPT in the process. (he was thankfully) and I would not have hesitated to report him if he wasn't. He might be a great guy and making a simple error, but these scouts depend on us to defend them. There's no way I can judge if he's innocently forgetting an element of YPT or doing something more diabolical. How many times do we read those news articles where the good scouter was just helping out a scout, only to find it was all part of grooming and ultimately, worse. 

Requiring us all to take YPT covers the legal point of you acknowledge that you took training that told you that it was wrong. It also reminds you that you have to be on the watch at all times. 

There are definitely elements of the old training I liked. But there are elements of this new training I really feel are important. 

[elitts]

7 minutes ago, Buggie said:

I would say "yes"  because we still have issues with folk who have passed YPT and do it. Also folks who pass YPT and don't follow the process of vigilance and reporting, because <name> is such a good person, they couldn't possibly be doing that.

There are people who pass YPT and still abuse kids because they are liars and horrible people; not because they didn't realize that abusing children is wrong.  And people don't follow the reporting criteria to the absolute letter because using judgement is part of what we teach people to do, and any rule that takes it away completely is a bad rule.

How many times do we read those news articles where the good scouter was just helping out a scout, only to find it was all part of grooming and ultimately, worse. 

Almost never actually.  Although that mindset is certainly part of the problem BSA faces.

 

 

[perdidochas]

I've always thought the purpose of YPT was as a CYA for those of us who don't violate children. I've been YPT certified for most of the time since 2006 or so. Besides the "rules" of interacting with youth, I've never thought it was a good training in recognizing the predators (the training I've had to do because our Troop is chartered by a Catholic Church is much better at that part, although not as clear about specific rules for interacting with youth. Having both the BSA and the diocesan trainings has been a good combination for me).  

 

That said, the situation outline by the OP is troubling. My first  YPT training was in September, and by the end of my time as a leader it was in June (did it early a few times, to make sure I had it for summer camp or some other situation).  

[Eagledad]

42 minutes ago, Buggie said:

the other day I exercised my YPT muscles by verifying a scouter who took other scouts home was following YPT in the process. (he was thankfully) and I would not have hesitated to report him if he wasn't. He might be a great guy and making a simple error, but these scouts depend on us to defend them. There's no way I can judge if he's innocently forgetting an element of YPT or doing something more diabolical. How many times do we read those news articles where the good scouter was just helping out a scout, only to find it was all part of grooming and ultimately, worse. 

Just so volunteers know exactly what they are getting into, to whom is the violation reported and does it go on some permanent record? 

Barry

[ParkMan]

28 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

I've always thought the purpose of YPT was as a CYA for those of us who don't violate children.

This is something that gets repeated a lot, but not really true.  

The point of YPT is to put in place processes and culture to make abuse significantly less likely to occur.  Further, if it does occur, YPT should give us the tools to recognize it and stop it as quickly as possible.

I'm not saying that YPT really achieves this things - but that's the purpose as I see it.

Edited December 16, 2019 by ParkMan
typos

[Buggie]

4 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Just so volunteers know exactly what they are getting into, to whom is the violation reported and does it go on some permanent record? 

I know it will seem harsh, but YPT dictates a report to national. You took the training. You should be doing the same thing. I'd also report to SM, CC, and COR unless one of them was the one I was reporting. It might end my involvement in scouting because I reported someone that people in charge like, but I've read too many articles, some mentioned here in this forum, where the situation is pushed off because the scouter would never and they are good folk etc. Only to find out later that they aren't as good as everyone thinks. In a lot of those stories, they talk to the guy, it's explained off, national never knows, and the abuse might take a slight vacation, then start back up with care not to tip anyone off again. 

Frankly, I'd rather save a kid from potential abuse than worry how it affects me or feel sorry because some scouter was stupid enough to forget YPT in a way that has to be reported. I've seen this before. I've had my own kid get targeted by the husband of a minister at church. (He got arrested by the FBI a year later for trying to hook up with teenagers nearby.) Post incidence and with this training, it is completely obvious what the guy was doing. This is not a "gee, don't do this again" situation when you're dealing with the life of a kid. Once I became aware, I swore I will never hesitate to report. Too many articles mention how "gee, don't do this again" results in the wrong thing. 

I'd also hate to be that scouter who had the chance to stop something, but didn't. I'm vocal about this with my troop. I've been vocal about this on this forum. The danger is far too real and too devastating for it to be treated without the proper response. 

And before anyone starts crying, "but it was just a slip up!"  There are slip ups.  When you have a scout follow you and put you in a 1-on-1 situation. When you turn around and realize you are alone with a scout. That's when you step away immediately. You can excuse yourself saying you have to go some place like the restroom or something. Haul your behind out of that situation. There isn't a slip up if you're taking a scout home with only the two of you in the car. You have to have good enough sense to think ahead. Your fellow scouters should have good enough sense to support you in looking ahead. If not, I'm reporting and let National sort it out. 

It's too dangerous to leave the scout alone!  Then get a good chunk of distance. I follow a scout from at a distance if we are in a 1 on 1. I make sure they are safe. If I need to, I'll grab an adult on the way. Amazing how other troop's and scouters will lend a hand when they know it's about YPT. 

Heck, I've slipped up where at summer camp, I'm dropping scouts off returning from a field trip. I dropped too many off at once. Suddenly realized I was in a one on one. "Sorry scout, you're going to have to get off here." Been in the trailer, turned around, urchin at the elbow. "Let's get out of the trailer." And then thankful that the SM showed up at that moment because he saw the scout walk in and knew I was in there. I've provided the wingman support for other scouters. We do have situations like this all the time. Scouts don't think about this, even if we tell them about it. They trust us. They trust us to protect them. To keep them from harm. Don't be that scouter who lets them down. 

[Eagledad]

Im retired from scouts, so I haven’t had the training. What happens to the adult who is reported? Is there a chance to defend against the accusation?

Barry