YPT required one year out to recharter?

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Im retired from scouts, so I haven’t had the training. What happens to the adult who is reported? Is there a chance to defend against the accusation?

Barry

I know of 1 situation where someone had a criminal investigation by law enforcement, and they could not find anything to substantiate the claim so no arrests were made.  Many people who knew the "scout"  had serious doubts about his story because he had a history of lying when he had been caught. And the person he accused caught him being a peeping tom after lights out in the women's shower area. I should know, he lied about me, saying I gave him permission to stay out after hours at a NOAC one year, when I was trying to bring him and the group he was with back to where they was suppose to be before they scattered to the wind.

He was allowed to remain in Scouting and receive Eagle. She had her reputation ruined, and was permanently banned from the BSA. And Scouts in the district lost a phenominal Scouter.

[awanatech]

On 12/16/2019 at 8:29 PM, Eagledad said:

Im retired from scouts, so I haven’t had the training. What happens to the adult who is reported? Is there a chance to defend against the accusation?

Barry

Once that accusation has been made, the accused is generally considered to be guilty and will be treated as such.  Whether there is any merit to the accusation or not.  It may be determined that there is not enough evidence to warrant any criminal action, but the accused will always be branded as such.  I have a close friend who was a high school teacher.  A female student made a false accusation about him that cost him his career and almost his family.  The student later acknowledged that she made up the whole story.  There were no repercussions for her and his life was ruined.  Many still feel like he must have done something to cause her to make up the story.  Once that accusation has been made, or that report made, the accused is as good as guilty in many cases. 

[awanatech]

On 12/16/2019 at 7:05 PM, Buggie said:

I know it will seem harsh, but YPT dictates a report to national. You took the training. You should be doing the same thing. I'd also report to SM, CC, and COR unless one of them was the one I was reporting. It might end my involvement in scouting because I reported someone that people in charge like, but I've read too many articles, some mentioned here in this forum, where the situation is pushed off because the scouter would never and they are good folk etc. Only to find out later that they aren't as good as everyone thinks. In a lot of those stories, they talk to the guy, it's explained off, national never knows, and the abuse might take a slight vacation, then start back up with care not to tip anyone off again. 

Frankly, I'd rather save a kid from potential abuse than worry how it affects me or feel sorry because some scouter was stupid enough to forget YPT in a way that has to be reported. I've seen this before. I've had my own kid get targeted by the husband of a minister at church. (He got arrested by the FBI a year later for trying to hook up with teenagers nearby.) Post incidence and with this training, it is completely obvious what the guy was doing. This is not a "gee, don't do this again" situation when you're dealing with the life of a kid. Once I became aware, I swore I will never hesitate to report. Too many articles mention how "gee, don't do this again" results in the wrong thing. 

I'd also hate to be that scouter who had the chance to stop something, but didn't. I'm vocal about this with my troop. I've been vocal about this on this forum. The danger is far too real and too devastating for it to be treated without the proper response. 

And before anyone starts crying, "but it was just a slip up!"  There are slip ups.  When you have a scout follow you and put you in a 1-on-1 situation. When you turn around and realize you are alone with a scout. That's when you step away immediately. You can excuse yourself saying you have to go some place like the restroom or something. Haul your behind out of that situation. There isn't a slip up if you're taking a scout home with only the two of you in the car. You have to have good enough sense to think ahead. Your fellow scouters should have good enough sense to support you in looking ahead. If not, I'm reporting and let National sort it out. 

It's too dangerous to leave the scout alone!  Then get a good chunk of distance. I follow a scout from at a distance if we are in a 1 on 1. I make sure they are safe. If I need to, I'll grab an adult on the way. Amazing how other troop's and scouters will lend a hand when they know it's about YPT. 

Heck, I've slipped up where at summer camp, I'm dropping scouts off returning from a field trip. I dropped too many off at once. Suddenly realized I was in a one on one. "Sorry scout, you're going to have to get off here." Been in the trailer, turned around, urchin at the elbow. "Let's get out of the trailer." And then thankful that the SM showed up at that moment because he saw the scout walk in and knew I was in there. I've provided the wingman support for other scouters. We do have situations like this all the time. Scouts don't think about this, even if we tell them about it. They trust us. They trust us to protect them. To keep them from harm. Don't be that scouter who lets them down. 

I just want to make sure that I understand... in one post, you mentioned that you flex your YPT muscle and would not hesitate to report someone for violating YPT.  But then admit that you have slipped up and violated YPT at least twice.  How would it have played out if someone else had seen you and decided to flex their YPT muscle and report you for these violations?  I'm not saying that abuse is not real, nor am I trying to minimize it.  However, I know that the consequences for a false accusation can be very real & long lasting.  And yes, I also understand that the effects of abuse are real and long lasting.  I just don't want to be too quick to ruin someone's life and reputation for something that never happened.

[Buggie]

1 hour ago, awanatech said:

How would it have played out if someone else had seen you and decided to flex their YPT muscle and report you for these violations?

Then they report it. I'd get investigated. Maybe my time in scouts comes to an end. 

I get what you and others are saying. A rash report could jeopardize and ruin someone's life and reputation. I'm not calling for rash reports. And yes, I fully admit that one can get into difficult decisions about this. It isn't easy. The grey areas are where the predators love to roam. 

And like you have acknowledged, a non-report could do far, far worse if abuse is going on. 

But again, look at what the training tells us to do. It says not to determine if there's something going on by ourselves or with our fellow local scouters. Report it to national. Plain and simple. If you witness something happen that is in violation of YPT, report it. 

In YPT what we're taught about is grooming. It isn't only used upon a youth. It is used on adults as well. It's a slow build up of trust to increase the predators alone time with their target and to make it easier for them to get with that child, in or outside of official scouting events. Even to make adults doubt a child if they do report it. Also to make other adults doubt an adult who reports something may be going on. Grooming is to make other adults trust the sexual predator and think of them as an okay or good person. Grooming seeks to make us support the predator because we find them credible. And to believe them when they say they haven't done anything wrong. 

And it's easy to fall into it. We are all subject to someone manipulating us. An experienced predator could be skilled in getting our trust. To make us see them as a good person. To make their actions seem honest and above reproach. 

Reading the reports on how sexual abuse starts, it commonly begins with an adult getting the trust of the youth and the probably the youth's parents. For scouting, it's about getting the trust of the adults in scouting as well. The predator counts on it to be innocent looking. For example, the scout needs a ride to/from scouting. Parents say it is okay. What's the harm? The harm is that this is how grooming starts. Nothing will likely occur in the beginning of these situations because the predator is building trust. Yet they have violated YPT by being alone with the scout that isn't their kid in a one-on-one situation. Grooming in this case is about gaining that trust from the adults. 

In the real life situation I talked about in the earlier post? I was making sure no one-on-one occurred. I'm still not comfortable with it, because I know how easy it could be for that adult to have their kid unable to make scouts for a night or an event, and suddenly they are now in a one-on-one situation at some point in driving the other scouts to/from scouting. And while I don't believe this scouter is doing anything bad, how could I possibly know? That's what grooming does. It makes us believe the scouter couldn't be doing anything wrong, even when they are willingly breaking YPT. 

That's what reporting is supposed to get around. We are compromised when it comes to judgement because we can buy into the grooming. We won't report this good person because obviously they were giving the kid a ride to and from scouts. That's all they are doing. And we can believe that nothing happened. And probably nothing did happen. But will that always be the case? That's what grooming is all about. Building that trust.

For most folks, hey, we're helpful. We have good intentions of helping our scouts and we want them to succeed. In our endeavor to do good for our scouts, we can put ourselves in situations that can look like grooming. A predator is looking for ways to build and bank that trust and get into those situations that they can take advantage of. That's why I say, ever vigilant. That's why the rules of YPT are so important to be followed at all times. Specifically, no one-on-one with a scout that isn't your kid. 

So for me, what separates a rash report from a legitimate report? Intention of YPT violation. If you purposefully are getting into a one-on-one situation like driving a scout, even with permission of the parents. That's means you are purposefully violating youth protection training. If you are purposefully walking off with a scout alone to go look at something cool, yup, violation. Is there always a clear cut way of designating this? Nope. Never will be.

I'm looking for clear violations. I'm also looking out for my fellow scouters as I know and hope they are for me. I am also taking note if there's that one person, who seems to be getting into the pickle more often than not. Ever vigilant. May sound paranoid, but frankly, I don't give a damn how it sounds or looks. My scouts are worth it. 

 

[SouthernTierScouter]

Our council asks that your YPT be good for the entire calendar year that you are chartering for. So the whole its good for 2 years thing doesn't work. We also wish there was a quicker Refersher/Test you could take yearly, with maybe redoing the whole thing every 5 or when new content is made. Its certainly a pain, but an hour of videos to make sure our leaders understand the important of YPT is not so terrible. A Scout is Obedient.

[Eagledad]

14 hours ago, Buggie said:

Then they report it. I'd get investigated. Maybe my time in scouts comes to an end.  

 

Maybe more than that. Your time as a coach, youth teacher, counselor, and school volunteer as well. You could loose your job and get asked to leave other organizations. Seems nobody really knows how far this can go. So to suggest that scouting is the only risk appears naive. Even you suggest you will report to National at the drop of the hat, I can't imagine volunteering around 3 or 4 Buggies. My time as a volunteer just a few years ago was far simpler. I'm not sure the risk is worth it with the new policies.

And lets not get tunnel vision on the types of actions that could be considered harmful. We asked a lot of adults to stay clear of scout activities as a result of something they said or did. We had one lawyer surprise us with a visit because their clients son didn't like the cussing from one of the adults. None of those actions were sexual in nature. Can you imagine an adult just having a bad day and letting go of a few four letter words. And it could just be something considered politically incorrect, like smoking in view of the scouts.

Scouting is way to hard. after reading Buggies posts, I would insist leaders give clear written warning of how they will handle adults actions that are viewed unsafe. Training isn't enough warning if all reports are going to National. 

Barry

[scoutldr]

My current YPT was good until March, but was told I had to take it now before I could re-register.  It was time consuming, and not much change from 2018, maybe more emphasis on females in units.  I missed two questions on the exam because they had multiple answers, but it didn't say "select all that apply" like the other questions did.  That needs to be fixed...or maybe add an "all of the above" choice.  I did learn that in my state, volunteers are not "mandatory reporters", but employees are.  Anyway, it's done and the youth are safe from me.  I have the certificate to prove it.

[Buggie]

@Eagledad At what point would you report? 

We all have that line we find ourselves having crossed where we realize we have to do something. 

[qwazse]

For YPT problems, I've called the director of field service.

For suspicions of abuse, we're all mandatory reporters in PA, so state police get the first call, then the SE gets a call.

[Eagledad]

32 minutes ago, qwazse said:

For YPT problems, I've called the director of field service.

For suspicions of abuse, we're all mandatory reporters in PA, so state police get the first call, then the SE gets a call.

What does the director of field service do with the calls, and what does PA call abuse?

Barry

[ParkMan]

For YPT to work, you have to be willing to report if there is an issue.  But, there's a difference between a "one time mistake that is clearly a mistake".  For example, two Scouters are together to provide two deep leadership with a single scout.  One realizes he left something in the car and runs to grab it.  It creates a moment where the other Scouter is in violation of YPT.  Scouter alone with the Scout recognizes the mistake and excuses himself from the situation.  Technically there is a violation there - but it's clear to all that it was a mistake.  

But, beyond that you really need to be aware of situations that may look innocent, but are indeed a potential issue.  For example - a Scouter leaves and drives a Scout home alone.  Everyone should know better than to do that.  Was it a mistake, or was it intentional?   Here I think you have to report it and let the SE sort it out.  My understanding is that SEs have been trained on what to look for and how to determine mistakes from something larger.

[qwazse]

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

What does the director of field service do with the calls, and what does PA call abuse?

Barry

The DFS fielded calls of non-actionable offenses of this nature on behalf of our SE when there were YPT issues but no evidence or accusations of abuse.

As to PA's definition :

Quote

"Bodily injury."  Impairment of physical condition or substantial pain.

"Serious bodily injury."  Bodily injury which creates a substantial risk of death or which causes serious permanent disfigurement or protracted loss or impairment of function of any bodily member or organ.

"Serious mental injury."  A psychological condition, as diagnosed by a physician or licensed psychologist, including the refusal of appropriate treatment, that:

(1)  renders a child chronically and severely anxious, agitated, depressed, socially withdrawn, psychotic or in reasonable fear that the child's life or safety is threatened; or

(2)  seriously interferes with a child's ability to accomplish age-appropriate developmental and social tasks.

"Serious physical injury."  (Deleted by amendment).

"Serious physical neglect."  Any of the following when committed by a perpetrator that endangers a child's life or health, threatens a child's well-being, causes bodily injury or impairs a child's health, development or functioning:

(1)  A repeated, prolonged or egregious failure to supervise a child in a manner that is appropriate considering the child's developmental age and abilities.

(2)  The failure to provide a child with adequate essentials of life, including food, shelter or medical care.

"Sexual abuse or exploitation."  Any of the following:

(1)  The employment, use, persuasion, inducement, enticement or coercion of a child to engage in or assist another individual to engage in sexually explicit conduct, which includes, but is not limited to, the following:

(i)  Looking at the sexual or other intimate parts of a child or another individual for the purpose of arousing or gratifying sexual desire in any individual.

(ii)  Participating in sexually explicit conversation either in person, by telephone, by computer or by a computer-aided device for the purpose of sexual stimulation or gratification of any individual.

(iii)  Actual or simulated sexual activity or nudity for the purpose of sexual stimulation or gratification of any individual.

(iv)  Actual or simulated sexual activity for the purpose of producing visual depiction, including photographing, videotaping, computer depicting or filming.

This paragraph does not include consensual activities between a child who is 14 years of age or older and another person who is 14 years of age or older and whose age is within four years of the child's age.

(2)  Any of the following offenses committed against a child:

(i)  Rape as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 3121 (relating to rape).

(ii)  Statutory sexual assault as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 3122.1 (relating to statutory sexual assault).

(iii)  Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 3123 (relating to involuntary deviate sexual intercourse).

(iv)  Sexual assault as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 3124.1 (relating to sexual assault).

(v)  Institutional sexual assault as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 3124.2 (relating to institutional sexual assault).

(vi)  Aggravated indecent assault as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 3125 (relating to aggravated indecent assault).

(vii)  Indecent assault as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 3126 (relating to indecent assault).

(viii)  Indecent exposure as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 3127 (relating to indecent exposure).

(ix)  Incest as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 4302 (relating to incest).

(x)  Prostitution as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 5902 (relating to prostitution and related offenses).

(xi)  Sexual abuse as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 6312 (relating to sexual abuse of children).

(xii)  Unlawful contact with a minor as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 6318 (relating to unlawful contact with minor).

(xiii)  Sexual exploitation as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 6320 (relating to sexual exploitation of children).

 

I do not believe this is an exhaustive list. But as you can see, the definition of serious physical injury was left undefined.

Bottom line, YPT violations are not abuse per se. But, they are the means by which predators may take advantage of children.

[Beccachap]

On 12/15/2019 at 2:26 PM, hertfordnc said:

> kneejerk reaction 

I suppose it appears that way, and "tone" is a challenge in written form but there's more to it. 

Having spent four decades in the largest bureaucracy on earth I am used to putting with things i think are stupid.   But  if you build an organization around free labor you have a responsibility to nurture that labor force.  

We spent all of the Fall rebuilding our pack and  raising money. My goal was that no parent would have to  pay more than $30. This is a poor community.  We almost lost the whole pack last year because we were led by higher income people who did not understand the needs of working parents. 

We would have met that goal but BSA doubled the national fee and we did not have cash in the bank.  Still, to meet the goal, we in leadership volunteered to cover the cost for ourselves and our scouts so that all the new parents would not be burdened and we squeeked by with a little in the bank and no hard feelings. 

BSA's failure to prepare  for the increased need and springing it on us weeks before charter shows reckless disregard for the people who do the work. 

This goofy two-year certification that cannot lapse in 23 months is another example of the same reckless disregard.  

And the other layer to my frustration is that I am trying hard to recruit leadership from lower income and minority folks in my community.  We are 30-40% non-white but scouting is as white as the klan for 100 miles in all directions. 

So when i ask a mom who works two jobs that I want her to be a den leader I expect the organization to value her time and mine.

end of rant 

YPT  is rolling in the background because in a dysfunctional bureaucracy, compliance is everything 



 

I don't know where you live, but I'd love to get a cuppa with you someday. I just lol'd at your Klan remark and disrupted a room full of folks here waiting on our cars to get serviced. You are doing amazing. 

Something that might help your lower income pack is to accept credit card payments and actually raise dues to include more activities. Those steps helped many of our lower income families. We also offer camperships, i.e. free dues, which anyone can claim. To claim one you must put your need in writing and sign your name. It's confidential, just between the parent and cubmaster. That simple action deters 90% of the people who inquire in our pack. 

At present or dues include a class b tshirt, pinewood derby (car and event), raingutter regatta (boat and event), and a 1$ campout with 4 meals for the whole family. It may seem counter intuitive, but this means exactly one painful financial transaction per year (can be paid off in installments through credit card), and that is easier for the parents to endure over the endless smaller payments.

Also, I don't know that aggressive ongoing fundraising will help the lowest income brackets because most of those families are working too many jobs to be able to get their kids to fundraising stuff in addition to traditional scout activities. We tried that route too and found it unsustainable. 

Try getting seen in the community and donors will present themselves to you. We stumbled into a real life Santa who pays for every campership and attends a few of our functions as an honored guest. (We met this Eagle Scout in a Santa parade). When I'm at my most frustrated, he seems to pop in my mind. 

Stepping into Committee Chair is the only role for you. Lead on! Your instincts are great, your mind is lovely, your humor is perfectly dark, and you can make your pack a hearty beast of your own making. 

I'm sure I'll get crap here for this, but if the ypt recert makes you crazy and your cert is still good, then set your computer to silent and kick it off in the background. Set a timer to remind you to pop back and answer questions now and then, and promptly forget about it for another year. Don't get bullied by it, just skip it. Watch it all again properly when your 2 years is up. 

Hope to see more posts from you soon. I could use the laughs. 

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Beccachap
Double posted, clarification