Alcohol use - what's our responsibility as leaders?

[EagleInKY]

BW makes a good point in that "your resonsibility ends at physical restraint.". However, I have seen/heard of instances of alcohol use where the leaders tend to look the other way. These are some common situations I've seen/heard of:

 

- A parent shows up at a Pack meeting or event after having some drinks. Maybe they just stopped for happy hour or had a few glasses of wine with dinner. Whatever the case, it's obvious they've had a few too many. Hopefully they are riding with someone else (so breaking the law isn't a factor).

 

- An adult leader shows up in the aforementioned condition.

 

- Adults leave summer camp for a "business meeting" and return late. I've heard rumors of this in the past. I think there may have been some of that at this year's summer camp.

 

So, what's our responsilbity as leaders? Let's say you are the SM, CM or CC of a unit where something like this happens. If you "look the other way", you are condoning questionable behavior, and likely allowing violations of G2SS to go on. And, if you noticed it, others likely did too. This could destroy your credibility as well.

 

Looking for thoughts. I know I've been in this situation in the past, and will likely be in it again someday. I'm sure others have as well.

[evmori]

The Scouts safety is our primary responsibility.

[Bob White]

My recommendation would be to open a discussion at the committee meeting. Make sure every understand their role and responsibilities when it comes to the policies of the BSA. Not every one is responsible for the same thing. The SM does not make policies on such matters but should have input and is responsible for upholding policies in his/her own actions and those of the people he/she supervises. The committee is responsible for enforcing the all policies of the BSA and creating environments that are in keeping with those policies (as is the Charter Organization Representative).

 

At no time should a volunteer use physical restraint except as an absolute last resort.

 

Some examples:

 

A parent shows up noticeably drunk to a pack meeting. The committee chair should find a task outside of the meeting room to employ the parent until the meeting ends. Then the Committee chair or CR should inform the parent that a ride will be provided to take his family home but if the parent attempts to drive you will be forced to contact the police.

 

A parent shows up drunk to a campout. Same thing find a task away from the boys or find the boys a task away from the parent. Contact another family member to come get the parent. In the mean time they are to have no interaction with the scouts until they are sober. If needed contact the authorities and have the parent removed.

 

After any such situation the unit committee should send a written warning to the parent that such behavior is incompatible with the scouting program and will not be tolerated again. Any repeat of the incident could lead to their revocation of membership (if registered), banning attendance at scout functions, or if needed legal action.

 

All Scouts and parents must be made aware that alcohol at any unit activity where youth are present, or on scout property, may result in immediate revocation of membership.

 

[EagleInKY]

Ed - I agree wholeheartedly. However, in the examples I gave, it could be argued that no youth were endangered. I worded it that way intentionally.

 

Bob - Some good advice and examples w/creative ways of dealing with them.

 

Let me play devil's advocate (oops, sorry to offend the atheists). Let's say he didn't drink at the Pack Meeting, isn't driving to or from the event, and is not overly intoxicated or any of the things that come with that (being beligerant, loud, etc.). It's just obvious to those of us who have been around it, that he (or she) has had a few too many. What if the parent says that it's none of our business? Is there a clear policy?

 

Another twist I just thought of... some religious groups are okay with the use of alcohol, while others are not. Does the CO's perspective play into this at all? For example, what if Johnny's dad comes to the Pinewood Derby after attending his church picnic (where beer was flowing freely)? The pack CO is the same church that hosted the picnic. Is there a double standard?

 

Now, if the pack is sponsored by a conservative group that doesn't approve of the use of alcohol, I could see the CO having a real problem with the dad's attendance.

[Bob White]

"It's just obvious to those of us who have been around it, that he (or she) has had a few too many. What if the parent says that it's none of our business? Is there a clear policy?"

 

That question assumes that if there is not a clear policy that there must be an unclear one. Let's phrase it more accurately. "Is there a national BSA policy that covers that situation?"

No there is not. But the unit can have their own plan as long as it is not less restrictive than an existing BSA policy.

 

"Another twist I just thought of... some religious groups are okay with the use of alcohol, while others are not. Does the CO's perspective play into this at all? For example, what if Johnny's dad comes to the Pinewood Derby after attending his church picnic (where beer was flowing freely)? The pack CO is the same church that hosted the picnic. Is there a double standard?"

 

Not at all. You cannot compare the rules of a social event to the rules of a scouting event. The one area where you will find a gray line is during the course of an official church worship service where wine sometimes plays an important role in the sacraments. For the period of that service that property and that event is now a church. The BSA does not restrict the use of wine in a recognized religious service.

 

"Now, if the pack is sponsored by a conservative group that doesn't approve of the use of alcohol, I could see the CO having a real problem with the dad's attendance"

 

I think the key here is control. Is the adult in control of his actions and behaviors? I would not make an issue of a an adult who drank alcohol prior to attending a scouting as long as he is control of himself. It is unlikely the scouts would notice and if he is not interfering with the program, or anyone's health or safety, I would not make it an issue. However I would not put them in any supervisory situation for their own protection and that of others.

 

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[SWScouter]

Here's another scenario. Last March, I organized a Pack campout. At the campout, one of the adults brought and drank one bottle of "near beer." I guess he figured he couldn't camp without any "beer" whatsoever.

 

Since he only had one and it was essentially non alchoholic, I let it slide. Should I have requested that he refrain from this? I'm tempted to be more specific at the next camping trip and state no alchoholic beverages nor alchoholic like beverages.

[boleta]

Near beer would be allowed, but what's the point?

 

If it were consumed for personal choice, why make it public? Nothing would stop this fellow from drinking this substitute in private and not making a big deal out of it. Obviously, something else is going on that he would make a "statement" by bringing near beer to the event and drinking it openly. Probably because there is a rule against drinking alcohol.

 

I am reminded of the cartoon of 2 men in business suits standing on a city street corner under a sign that reads, "No juggling chain saws". One businessman says- "I suddenly have the urge to juggle chain saws." Human Nature.

[Bob White]

Is it against BSA national Policy? No it is not. it is in keeping with the example the Chartered organization wants to expose the scouts to? I don't know you will need to ask them. Is it the Scoumasters decision? That is a personal call. Personally, I would not have allowed it. If the individual really could not be without the taste of beer for a weekend he needs to be somewhere other than a scout activity. Hopefully seeking professional help.

[SWScouter]

First, thanks for the comments, they are helpful.

 

"Near beer would be allowed, but what's the point?"

 

There must be some point to it otherwise there would be no market for the stuff. Granted it's not my cup of tea, or, should I say, draught of beer.

 

"If it were consumed for personal choice, why make it public? Nothing would stop this fellow from drinking this substitute in private and not making a big deal out of it."

 

It really wasn't made public nor was any big deal made of it. He just went and drank it in the evening. Personally, I would worry more if he went off and drank it in hiding. Really, this whole thing was just a question on if I handled this in a reasonably correct manner.

 

"If the individual really could not be without the taste of beer for a weekend he needs to be somewhere other than a scout activity. Hopefully seeking professional help."

 

This just seems a bit too presumptuous. Though I can't say for sure, I highly doubt this man has a drinking problem. Some people just like to have a beer in the evening, others like to have a glass of wine at dinner. For example, my wife likes to have a beer when she cooks dinner. I know she doesn't have a drinking problem.

 

Thanks again for the comments.

 

SWS

[scoutingagain]

Eagle in KY,

 

A good question. In general I believe we as leaders have a responsibility to uphold and live by the rules set forth in the G2SS.

 

I also agree with Ed, and that our primary concern should be the safety of the youth members.

 

And, it's great to see BW back. I would have been suprised to see him stay away for long.

 

Just for yucks I'll pass on my 2 cents with respect to some of the examples you gave.

 

"- A parent shows up at a Pack meeting or event after having some drinks. Maybe they just stopped for happy hour or had a few glasses of wine with dinner. Whatever the case, it's obvious they've had a few too many. Hopefully they are riding with someone else (so breaking the law isn't a factor). "

 

I agree with BW, if the individual is obviously intoxicated. i.e. Slurred speach, stumbling etc. The individual should not have contact with the youth members. If he drove to the meeting and expects to drive home, again I agree with the previous statments with respect to making arrangents to drive he(or she) and his family home.

 

However, if the person is not obviously intoxicated and appears to be in control of themselves, are we saying he should be excluded from the meeting because he consumed an alcoholic beverage somtime before the meeting and we know it? To me that seems a little extreme. He has not engaged in any activity that violates YP or G2SS guidelines and if there is no reason to believe there is a safety concern (i.e. As far as anyone can tell, even though we may know the individual had a drink, there is nothing in their behavior to indicate they would not be able to legally operate a vehicle.) Why would it be an issue? The same would be with a parent or adult leader that arrived from a social function where it was known that alcoholic beverages were served.

 

"Adults leave summer camp for a "business meeting" and return late. I've heard rumors of this in the past. I think there may have been some of that at this year's summer camp."

 

Personally I think if, as an adult leader you sign up for summer camp, you should commit yourself for the duration of your agreed stay. Adults should not leave the camp for social reasons, whether it's to have a meal away from the youth, consume alcoholic beverages or whatever. Granted there may be circumstances related to one's occupation, or personal reasons, as to why an adult might have to leave for an evening, in general I believe adults should commit to the camping experience and not leave.

 

If, as in the other thread, one is confronted with an adult who is obviously drunk, and that individual is preparing to drive, with youth or not, I believe the correct course of action would be to try and stop the individual from driving.(Not physically, I agree with BW.) The individual should be confronted, and asked if they would like someone else to drive or have them stick around until they sober up. (Even if it's overnight.) If they insist on driving, I would not hesitate to call law enforcement.

 

Regarding the last example given by, SWScouter, I personally wouldn't have a problem with an adult bringing a non-alcoholic beverage on a campout. He's conciously living upto the rules in the G2SS. He's not sneaking an alcoholic beverage in behind your back. He's open and honest about his taste preferences and has made a choice to accomodate those and meet the G2SS rules. Would you prevent someone from bringing tonic water with lime, because it looks like a gin & tonic? or grape juice because it looks like a red wine? I would prefer to ban the consumption of carbonated beverages that contain 30-35 grams of sugar per serving and contain caffiene for all. (This reminds me of something and I think I'll start another thread.)

 

SA