Did BSA "Abandon" LDS?

[Hawkwin]

13 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

But including girls in Scouting sends a message that boys and girls learn in the same way, and are for all intents and purposes identical.

You mistakenly conflate the methods by which one learns as the same things as the topic being taught. Yes, people (let's acknowledge that not all boys or girls learn in the same way) have different methods by which they assimilate knowledge but none of that should have any bearing whether or not a person, should be taught how to tie a bowline knot or how to use a compass properly. BSA teaches life skills, not boy skills.

[le Voyageur]

51 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

I know next to nothing about the Mormon religion. Can you expand on these fundamental differences between the sexes that demand they not be co-mingled? Do Mormon children go to single-sex schools? 

During my time (the David O McKay era....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_O._McKay) men would go to Priesthood, and women to the ward's kitchen to make sandwiches and kool aid and tend the children ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_women    Everyone knew, and had their place and the lines were never crossed....

Edited November 20, 2019 by le Voyageur

[The Latin Scot]

1 hour ago, le Voyageur said:

During my time (the David O McKay era....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_O._McKay) men would go to Priesthood, and women to the ward's kitchen to make sandwiches and kool aid and tend the children ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_women    Everyone knew, and had their place and the lines were never crossed....

You make it sound like raising children is somehow a "lesser responsibility" than holding the priesthood, when the two are equally important and are, in fact, shared by both sexes. Also, this is a MASSIVE generalization of an era that my parents also grew up in, and their picture of the times is very different from yours. This kind of depiction is one-sided and derogatory towards the religion of a number of members here. If you have qualms about the faith that is your right and privilege, but it's un-Scoutlike to express such demeaning and biased portrayals here. This is a forum about Scouting, not the culture of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Let's stay on topic.

[The Latin Scot]

1 hour ago, Saltface said:

I'm 99% certain that adding girls to Cubs and Boy Scouts BSA had nothing to do with the Church's decision to leave BSA. On the other hand, I see it reasonably likely that the LDS Church leaving BSA was at least part of the reason girls were added to the program. There are currently three LDS Church leaders on the National Executive Board and the vote to admit girls was reportedly unanimous. 

This I very much appreciate. Thank you for this comment. 

[The Latin Scot]

1 hour ago, Pale Horse said:

I know next to nothing about the Mormon religion. Can you expand on these fundamental differences between the sexes that demand they not be co-mingled? Do Mormon children go to single-sex schools? 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng

[Pale Horse]

3 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng

Thanks for the link, still struggling to understand what in there leads to the belief that they can't Scout together. 

[mashmaster]

Frankly, this topic should be shut down.  People on each side are not going to change their opinion and it will just end up pissing everyone off in the end.  I for one am Jewish and for a long time National were actively advising against temples sponsoring units because of the overall focus on Christianity as the basis for National decisions.  That is much less now. 

IMHO, Scouting is supposed to be interfaith.  The believe and faith in God is what is asked of scouts from the beginning.  Once a particular faith has too much influence the interfaith nature will go away.  The scout program is good for preparing scouts for life which is also interfaith.

I welcome people of all faiths into the program and that they should follow their believes and not impose or evangelize them onto others.

I have my own beliefs about the Church of Latter-Day Saints and will hold those to myself.

[le Voyageur]

52 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

You make it sound like raising children is somehow a "lesser responsibility" than holding the priesthood, when the two are equally important and are, in fact, shared by both sexes. Also, this is a MASSIVE generalization of an era that my parents also grew up in, and their picture of the times is very different from yours. This kind of depiction is one-sided and derogatory towards the religion of a number of members here. If you have qualms about the faith that is your right and privilege, but it's un-Scoutlike to express such demeaning and biased portrayals here. This is a forum about Scouting, not the culture of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Let's stay on topic.

You're being way too defensive, nor do you appear wanting to accept that others have experiences that you find distasteful being that they conflict with your world view....nor, is it a "massive generalization" since this was the way it was during this era.  Sadly, I lack a "wayback machine" to provide you with a tour of these times, the 50's and 60's  where the gender dividing lines were real and absolute. In a way, your comments remind me of those elders that set at my "Court of Love" attempting to admonish me for my honesty.  However, I wear my excommunication as a badge of honor as I was evicted out of the fold by this guy ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Mecham     None the less, I'll continue to speak my truths per the opening of the Desiderata....

 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by le Voyageur

[Pale Horse]

21 minutes ago, le Voyageur said:

You're being way too defensive, nor do you appear wanting to accept that others have experiences that you find distasteful being that they conflict with your world view....nor, is it a "massive generalization" since this was the way it was during this era.  Sadly, I lack a "wayback machine" to provide you with a tour of these times, the 50's and 60's  where the gender dividing lines were real and absolute. 

To be fair, I don't think the gender divides of the 50's and 60's was isolated to any one religion in particular.

[le Voyageur]

8 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

To be fair, I don't think the gender divides of the 50's and 60's was isolated to any one religion in particular.

True...but, some religions and individuals tended to the extreme...and now, we are way off topic and out in the weeds....   

Edited November 20, 2019 by le Voyageur

[MattR]

2 hours ago, mashmaster said:

Frankly, this topic should be shut down.  People on each side are not going to change their opinion and it will just end up pissing everyone off in the end. 

Well, I'm not there yet. The whole premise of this thread is a bit antagonistic and given that, y'all have been fairly good.

I have to agree with the comments that the BSA and LDS just grew apart. I know several LDS members that are disappointed with the split. I'm also guessing that the outdoors will not be used much in the future LDS program. That will be a shame but I'm not trying to make a world wide program. Now that I mention it, I guess there already is a world wide outdoor youth program. I think it's called scouts or something and it's doing real well. Maybe the BSA should figure out what they're doing that works so well.

[swilliams]

I’ve been stewing on this statement about the BSA leaving the Church for a while now. Churches/religions exist to guide us in being closer to God. By extension, deserved or not, they have an inherent moral authority. Having a church leader say the BSA left them is essentially saying BSA stepped away from morality. With the high-profile acceptance of gay males and then females into the program, the implication becomes that allowing these youth to participate in scouting is immoral. Is it any wonder this subject gets heated?

It was an unfortunate statement that I don’t think was really meant the way it sounded, but from a female perspective it was somewhat hurtful nonetheless. Add to that the examples of the new program shown in the video, and it has me struggling to stay positive.  

‘Here, young women, we’ll show you a quorum (a word loaded with power and authority even outside the Church) of boys that are going out to do something new to most of them. You worship with your family and bake a cake.’   Good grief, it’s almost like saying ‘go make me a sammich’.

[MattR]

@swilliams, I respect that you don't like how the LDS church wants to run their program. At the same time we need to respect their program. 

[Saltface]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

I'm also guessing that the outdoors will not be used much in the future LDS program. 

Three to six camp outs per year and one long-term camping trip -- there was a second video released last Sunday with further details: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/broadcasts/face-to-face/?lang=eng&cid=email-OCA_CYD_111719_CTABroadcast

@swilliams You might find some satisfaction at the 34:50 mark.

[swilliams]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

@swilliams, I respect that you don't like how the LDS church wants to run their program. At the same time we need to respect their program. 

It's possible to respect what they're doing but still feel a bit hurt by their statement or diminished by how the program was presented.  I've done my best to refrain from what would be considered attack, while still expressing what recent events have meant to me, personally, particularly given some of the teachings I was raised with - and which are not appropriate to go into here.  In any case, it's less about how they are running their program, and more about the presentation.  I wish they would have given different examples of what young women can accomplish.

8 minutes ago, Saltface said:

Three to six camp outs per year and one long-term camping trip -- there was a second video released last Sunday with further details: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/broadcasts/face-to-face/?lang=eng&cid=email-OCA_CYD_111719_CTABroadcast

@swilliams You might find some satisfaction at the 34:50 mark.

  I am thrilled that the young women's camp will still be running.  Absolutely the best part of the young women's program for me during the time I was growing up.  I still have my YWMIA certificate somewhere.