Different Directions

[Eagle Foot]

About every 2 months we have a couple of our adult leaders (ASM's)who take it upon them selves to conduct an activity that involves their little group. This group involves about 4-5 scouts from the troop. These activities are things like repelling, canoeig, hiking, etc....but just their group. They give no notice nor do they invite or include other members of the troop.

 

These activities cut into such things like having to leave early from camping (troop camping)or not being able to attend weekend camping because they did something the weekend before. Not only does this cut into adult leader ship it cuts into troop program.

 

We have crossed this path more than once, I've explained they need to include all the others...they don't. My unit commis. says I may have to ask them to leave the troop. I'm beginning to agree.

 

What whould be a word to the wise?

[ozemu]

Is the SM one of these people?

[Eagle Foot]

The SM is not one of these people I am the SM.

[ozemu]

Does your system allow a unit to conduct an activity without your (SM's) signature? Or are they doing this not under your Troop's umbrella?

 

 

[Eagle Foot]

Does your system allow a unit to conduct an activity without your (SM's) signature?

 

Ans. Nothing in writing about this...gray area...they consider these non scouting.

 

Or are they doing this not under your Troop's umbrella?

 

Ans. Not doing this under the troop's umbrella but doing this on scout property, they never had a proplem yet!!!!!

They claim these are non scouting...but claim advancement on these on some occasions when it fits or favors them.

 

 

[scoutingagain]

Under some circumstances I could see that there might be nothing wrong with these types of activities. I can see have special events for older scouts or the leadership core of the troop, or specific patrol activities.

 

However if this is just a special clique that wants to do things exclusive of others in the troop, it doesn't sound very scout like. I would ask how arbitrarily excluding others in the troop is friendly, courtious or kind. If they are making plans in secret, how is that being trustworthy?

 

If this is boy led, I might asks the scouts if they minded if others in the troop attended these events. If the scouts don't object, I don't see where the adults have standing to exclude them.

 

One last thought, and it's not very nice. If the scouts do object, you could deny them advancement based on not living up to the requirement to show scout spirit.

 

If they want to have private non-scout events, they are free to do so, but should not expect to use troop equipment or use scout properties. Just my opinion.

 

SA

 

 

[Eagledad]

HI All

 

It's time for an adult meeting and you have to be frank about the damage it is causing. You can't make a person feel guilt, it has to come from them. So put it to them, explain how their personal agenda is hurting the agenda of the other 20 or 30 scouts and you need their help or the troop will suffer.

 

I'm one that doesnt care much for the BSA's present Venturing Patrol idea. It tends to divide a troop more than it helps hold on to older scouts. I have always like the idea of a temporary Venture Patrols. Patrols that only exist for that one outing. The idea requires at least two adults who work as advisers to the scout leading the patrol. Once the outing is over, all the members go back to their regular patrols. The requirements to this patrol would be have the maturity and training for the outing. Not age, rank or popularity. It can be anything to a weekend campout to a 10 day hike in Alaska. We had one for going to Six Flags. You will be amazed how quickly these guys will learn how to plan and lead the group. Their skills will grow by leaps and bounds and young scouts can participate in many of the activities as you all ready know. Take this problem and make it into a bonus for your troop.

 

Present that or something like that to the adults and maybe between the learning that they are hurting the program and modifying their outings into a program to developing leadership and planning skills, you might be able to get these guys on board to scheduling their outings and including the rest of the troop.

 

That is just one thought. You need to get it fixed though, Ive seen this kind of thing tear down a troop.

 

Good luck

 

Barry

 

[EagleInKY]

About every 2 months we have a couple of our adult leaders (ASM's)who take it upon them selves to conduct an activity that involves their little group.

 

Hmmm, I thought the only "little groups" in Boy Scouts were patrols.

 

Are these boy-led? Are they done under the name of scouting? How did these "little groups" form?

 

[eisely]

One person with authority who is not mentioned is the committee chair. Where is your CC on this? The whole subject is one best taken up formally by the unit committee. If a unit committee is functioning properly it can lay down the law about this sort of thing.

 

It sounds like the adults involved in this clique want to have the benefits of scouting without sharing the burdens. If they are going to claim advancement benefits for these activities then the activities need to come from the boys and open to all interested and capable members of the unit. Maybe they should be invited to form their own unit.

[Eamonn]

Have to say that by the sound of what you say something is not right.

What is and what isn't a Scouting activity? While some people will split hairs and try to do non approved activities by saying this is not a Scouting activity, most parents don't know the rules and think that anytime that their son is doing something with someone from the troop that whatever they are doing is a Scouting activity.

Sad to say in our Council we had a case of a real twit. He took a small group of Scouts away by himself. While they were away he tied the Scouts up and Scratched the letter "T" on their chests. The T was for trust. Needless to say the parents were non too happy and went to the police.

There never was a tour permit filed, there was no two deep leadership, the chartered organization had no knowledge of the trip.Of course everyone in "Boy Scout Land" started saying that everyone ought to have known that there has to be two deep leadership and this and that ought to have been done.

The press had a field day with this. The guy did not sexually abuse the Scouts. Still some of the parents filed suit against the Council and the BSA. In the end a settlement was reached. However the Council was left paying some large fees. Also the damage done to the image of the Boy Scouts was immense.

The type of activities that these ASM's are doing with these Lads are such that someone could get hurt or even get killed. I sure as heck would not allow these ASM's to continue.

They need to understand the damage that could be done. If they fail to see the light I think that the chartering organization needs to be brought in and maybe theses guys need to go.

Eamonn.

[SR540Beaver]

Eagle Foot,

 

You say they are having their mutual admiration society outings on Scout properties? Are they making a reservation and filing a Tour Permit with the Council? If so, they are not just having a buddies outing, they are having a troop activity. If not, they don't belong on the property. Check with your council and see if they are making reservations and turning in paper work. If they are, make arrangements with the Council concerning who can and can not do this from your troop. If they are just walking in and taking advantage of the camp property without approval, clue the council and ranger in. For me, the dividing line here is whether it is just a group of close friends who enjoy spending time outdoors in addition to the troop activities or if they are doing it as a clandenstine troop activity complete with paperwork. The other posters are correct, it needs to be handled directly with the adults involved. However, letting council and the ranger(s) know what is going on could help put an end to it too.

[Mike F]

Eagle Foot,

 

I feel your pain, but don't think you can force dads/sons from getting together in small groups to do things together outside of troop activities. Fishing MB doesn't require scout to catch 3 fish at scout activity - only says to catch 3 fish, so you can't deny them the applicability of all activities to advancement. Might be able to deny the nights of camping if your troop disallows family camping toward Camping MB, etc., (but that's another long argument). Also might be able to disallow Tend-1stClass requirements depending on your troop's policy toward who has signature authority and requirements for witnessing.

 

But you can emphatically stress to both scouts and adults the need to support the troop program first. It's OK to have outside activities, but do them with the understanding that troop campout the next weekend has priority, too. This is especially true if any of the participating scouts are in positions of responsibility. Normally this kind of extra activities aren't a problem, but having about 6 per year is a lot and sounds intrusive.

 

You might be able to find out what kind of extra things they're doing and get them involved in helping bring those ideas into the troop planning process so more could enjoy.

 

I am confused about one thing -- is it true they are saying these aren't scout activities, but are conducting them on scout property? I don't think they can have it both ways, unless your local council allows private groups to use their propery and the event has been registered as such.

 

Good luck turning this group's ideas and energy into a positive force for your troop!

 

-mike

[boleta]

I agree that the activities could be used for some advancement requirements as discussed by Mike F.

 

After discussing the issues at a parents' meeting, you could make it clear that leaving an event early must be approved in advance. Leaving the clean-up of the troop acitvity to all others and not helping with this part of the event is truly not scoutlike or showing scout spirit.

 

The boys, however, should not suffer for the misbehavior of their parents. That seems to be part of what is happening here. Are the boys in leadership positions? If not, how do they advance. If yes, then they must fulfill their obligations to get credit for their PORs.

 

You have several avenues for resolving this conflict, hopefully in a constructive way.

[ozemu]

Our system is so different. In the following I use BSA terminology so that it makes sense to you all.

 

I cannot imagine an activity without my approval here. I realise though that the forms dont actually require my signature. Given that I supervise the PLC and they have sole responsibility for advancement and program (incl all activities and meetings) these things would have to pass under my nose. My only ability in these meetings is power of veto to prevent them doing something dangerous, hurtful or really stupid. Otherwise I get to offer advice. ASMs are always invited but have no vote at all - just my veto.

 

Some of our experience here might help but probably not as BSA has a different take on what is a Scouting formation. Your experience is making me think though.

 

Good luck.

[KoreaScouter]

Nobody needs to complain about a Scout or volunteer adult for more than a year. The system's self-cleansing. If their behavior isn't compatible with your program, don't put them on your recharter and let their membership with your unit expire. I'm not suggesting an ambush, but if you're going to talk with them anyway?

 

KS