BSA amends female adult required with female youth

[RememberSchiff]

It took a  letter to the Chicago Tribune by a Dad DL. (I wonder if it was @Eagle94-A1 ?)

By having a female-specific requirement for participation, the BSA has deliberately established systemic gender bias and exclusion of female scouts,” Den Leader Matt Janes wrote to the Tribune.

In response, Boy Scouts of America ruled last week that Janes’ daughter, whom Janes asked not be identified by name, may continue in the program without a female leader as long as her father, a trained den leader, is with her. But Scout officials said this was a special accommodation while they try to recruit more members and seek more female leaders.

"We are committed to providing a great Scouting experience for every youth and family in our programs,” the Scouts said in a statement. “We have worked closely with Mr. Janes and local Scouting leaders to determine a solution that works for everyone. ... For the time being, Mr. Janes and his daughter will continue to meet for den activities without a female leader given this unique set of circumstances.”

More details at source.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-cub-scouts-discrimination-claim-20191009-e6slxcn7yvccbpu2qs647mkkk4-story.html

Edited October 9, 2019 by RememberSchiff

[Eagle94-A1]

Not me, but I am glad the BSA's double standard is getting attention.

[walk in the woods]

Who could have predicted this? 

Interesting trick bag to be in.  We have the best possible safety rules according to experts.  Our rules are inconvenient to this family.  So we're going to bend our rules.  Is that because we don't care about the child's safety or are our rules NOT the best possible? 

What happens if that pack fails to recruit female leaders?  Does the exception become the rule? Do we ignore the experts or kick the girl out or have dad lie about her sexuality? 

The other thing I found interesting was the fathers unwillingness to pursue other options.  I understand his position but it highlights the reality that people won't be as flexible to take their kids to available units.  Rather they'll force the BSAs hand.

[Jameson76]

Surprised it took this long for the issue to be acknowledged by the Wizards in Dallas and "shocked face" they made an exception.  His claims of gender bias is spot on and will not stand for much longer.

I found this quote, that was attributed to Jeannine Szatkowski, who writes the Scouter Mom blog fascinating "Girls may have issues they only feel comfortable talking about with women, so it’s important they have a leader to go to, she said".  Not saying it does not have validity, but Wow, can you say double standard?  2 women can lead a boys den, but 2 men cannot lead a girls den.  Can you imagine if the same quote was used for justifying having a male requirement for the boys (or actually I guess those that identify as boys)?  People's heads would spin

[Treflienne]

I will point out that requiring a woman leader present when girls are involved is not unique to BSA. GSUSA also requires there to be at least one woman leader present (i.e. for GSUSA the require minimum two unrelated adults can be two women, or one-woman-and-one-man,  but not two men.)

There are several ways BSA can get rid of the double standard, if people push hard to get the double standard removed.

1) Allow adult leadership to be men-only.   Some parents, including me, will balk at this and not permit our daughers to go, depending on the event.  (Would I really want to send a small group of teenage girls on a camping trip to be supervised by young men in their early twenties?  Sorry.  Not a good idea in my mind.  )

2) Make the exception the new rule -- I.e. if each female scout attending is accompanied by a parent or guardian, then you can get by without an adult female.   Say hello to "Family Scouting" if we, at the Scouts BSA level, have every girl accompanied by her dad.  Where would be the opportunity for scouts to learn how to be independent and self-sufficient if their parents are constantly hovering?

3) Make it reciprocal.  Require there to be at least one male adult in attendence at any scouting event at which there is a male youth in attendance.  This would probably have no impact on any current Boy Scout troops.   It might require some cub scout packs to step up the recruiting of dads to work with the younger boy dens.   While nobody considers it inappropriate for a couple of moms to be in charge of a group of 8-year-old boys, it could be argued that it is beneficial for the younger boys to have the opporuninty to interact with male role models.   

Which of these do you prefer?    As a parent of a female scout, I'd rather live with the double standard.   Anyway,  I don't see BSA going with option 1, especially with all the current concern about YPT and related issues that have been in the news recently. 

[Eagledad]

2 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Surprised it took this long for the issue to be acknowledged by the Wizards in Dallas and "shocked face" they made an exception.  His claims of gender bias is spot on and will not stand for much longer.

I found this quote, that was attributed to Jeannine Szatkowski, who writes the Scouter Mom blog fascinating "Girls may have issues they only feel comfortable talking about with women, so it’s important they have a leader to go to, she said".  Not saying it does not have validity, but Wow, can you say double standard?  2 women can lead a boys den, but 2 men cannot lead a girls den.  Can you imagine if the same quote was used for justifying having a male requirement for the boys (or actually I guess those that identify as boys)?  People's heads would spin

It will get worse. Gays and transgenders have preferences and biological urges as well. The cultural warriors have been in such a hurry to force inclusiveness that very little thought was allowed to consequences for sexual accountability. Even now the Supreme Court is in the process of interpreting the law of sexuality that could change the future of sports. Should biological males be allowed compete against biological females if the biological males claim they are females? 

Family scouting may turn out to be the only way youth can go on scouting camp outs within the law. 

Barry

Edited October 9, 2019 by Eagledad

[elitts]

22 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

Would I really want to send a small group of teenage girls on a camping trip to be supervised by young men in their early twenties?

I mean, I get that it's not inconceivable, but I've never even heard of a boy's camp-out where there wasn't at least one person who was a parent of a scout.  And while I suppose that might possibly mean someone in their mid-twenties if they knocked someone up at 15-16, in most cases that's going to be at least someone in their 30s.  Anywhere around me, the average parent of an 11+ year old would be closer to 40 than to 30.  So while I don't necessarily object to your concern conceptually, is it really a potentiality that we should be creating rules around?

Plus, I know for a fact there are plenty of parents willing to send their teenager girls to sports events and practice with no one along but male coaches.

[Jameson76]

51 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

Would I really want to send a small group of teenage girls on a camping trip to be supervised by young men in their early twenties?  Sorry.  Not a good idea in my mind. 

That is an interesting sentiment.  Is the world really that dark?  A predator behind every tree?  If YPT guidelines are followed there should not be any issue.  With all the gender inclusiveness it should be "youth" and then "adults (over 21)"  End of story.

[Hawkwin]

3 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

Our rules are inconvenient to this family. 

No, our rules are discriminatory to this family.

Boys in scouting may be lead by two women or two men but girls in scouting require a registered female leader.

Now, we are well within our right to discriminate in such a manner - nothing requires us to do otherwise, but with the need for 2-deep in most cases, it seems antiquated and unnecessary - and certainly a determent to BSAs desire to be welcoming to both genders..

 

[Hawkwin]

58 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

(Would I really want to send a small group of teenage girls on a camping trip to be supervised by young men in their early twenties? 

If you can't trust trained adults, regardless of age, then it should not matter the gender of the scouts they are supervising. There are enough lawsuits currently that illustrate that point.

 

[ShootingSports]

Its about time they looked at this.  I cringed and knew it was an issue, the first time I read the new rule.  Not to kick a hornet nest, but what if the female leaders were LBQT? Gasp.......  Hawkin is right, trained should be the only requirement.

[69RoadRunner]

At summer camp last year, there was a troop of all boys with just 2 female adult leaders.  I have no problem with that, but saying 2 adult male leaders for a group with 1 or more girls is gender bias.  

Having different rules for men and women seems like something that will result in legal challenges.  

[Jameson76]

26 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

At summer camp last year, there was a troop of all boys with just 2 female adult leaders.  I have no problem with that, but saying 2 adult male leaders for a group with 1 or more girls is gender bias.  

Having different rules for men and women seems like something that will result in legal challenges.  

You are assuming the male leaders identify as male...one cannot assume in the this brave new world.  I do actually wonder how that would play out.  All female troop, one male leader identifying as male and one currently biological male that identifies as female; is this in compliance with YPT?

[Treflienne]

6 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

You are assuming the male leaders identify as male...one cannot assume in the this brave new world.  I do actually wonder how that would play out.  All female troop, one male leader identifying as male and one currently biological male that identifies as female; is this in compliance with YPT?

If we reach this point, this is when I am looking for some sane and sensible support from the chartered organization.

If I remember right, the issue of transgender leaders has come up in Girl Guides (UK).

[ParkMan]

3 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

If you can't trust trained adults, regardless of age, then it should not matter the gender of the scouts they are supervising. There are enough lawsuits currently that illustrate that point.

 

This is where I'm at too.  Parents in a pack or troop need to be able to trust the adult leaders to take their kids camping.  Gender is secondary here.

However, if the BSA really believes they need this rule, then I'd rather it simply say:

Quote

 

All activities require two deep registered adult leadership.  At least one adult must be of the same gender as any Scout in attendance.  if there is a male youth in attendance, at least one adult must be male.  If there is a female youth in attendance, at leas one adult my be female. 

A youth's parent of either gender can attend in lieu of requiring an adult of the same gender to attend for that individual Scout.  For example, if a unit has all female youth attending an event and one male youth attends, the male youth's mother can attend in lieu of requiring an adult male to attend.