Real estate donation

[InquisitiveScouter]

7 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I’d say the troop doesn’t become incorporated, but the adults in troops can form corporations for the benefit of the troop (either parallel to the CharteredOrg or to become the CharteredOrg). 

Yes, like a sort of Booster Club...

[RememberSchiff]

On 8/21/2024 at 12:37 PM, RememberSchiff said:

Case in point: Greater Tampa Bay Area  Council selling 50 acre parcel of Sand Hill Scout Reservation.

 

Hold the presses, not 50 acres!  Tampa Bay Council is considering selling another 450 acres of Sand Hill Scout Reservation for "residential and commercial developement".

With diminished membership and a need for millions of dollars worth of camp upgrades, the Greater Tampa Bay Area Council of the Boy Scouts of America is exploring the sale of 500 acres of its 1,300-acre camp in Hernando County that has drawn Scouts from across Florida for decades.

...

Now on Sept. 19, the council’s 70-member executive board will vote on whether to begin marketing another 450 wooded acres of Sand Hill on the northeast section for commercial and residential development, Scout executive Mike Butler confirmed. The board will also vote on the sale of the 50 acres to the electric cooperative if the purchase agreement is ready by then, Butler said.

...

Butler said enclosed buildings with private toilets and showers will cost up to $600,000 each — eight are needed across three camp locations.  (Military reserve units on training exercises might help here.)

More details including photos and map at source:

https://www.tampabay.com/news/hernando/2024/08/30/boy-scouts-explore-sale-500-acres-sand-hill-camp-brooksville/

 

Poor Larry DiePolder must be spinning in his grave. 

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

"Some of the biggest needs for modernization (Camp Sand Hill) are new bathrooms and showers at campsites, Porter said. The current facilities are huts, some 50 years old, with little privacy for boys and girls. Outdoor showers have panels where passersby can peer in from above or below the user. Scout Executive Mike Butler said enclosed buildings with private toilets and showers will cost up to $600,000 each — eight are needed across three camp locations.

The council is seeking to build a new dining hall at Camp Brorein in Hillsborough County, which will cost $7 million. Other projects at Sand Hill include a BB gun range for Cub Scouts, upgrades to the existing shooting facility and a new ropes course. If the 50-acre portion is developed by the electric cooperative, the council will have to build a new ranger home and maintenance barns that are currently on that site at an estimated cost of $800,000."

Sand Hill operated this summer, so it presumably passed the NCAP Assessment Team inspection. Let's see the NCAP report. for their observations and recommendations.

"The council has a $21.7 million endowment as of July 31, but $11.7 million of that is restricted and unable to be used for construction projects, records provided by Butler show. "

Well now. Not a lawyer, but if Circuit Court Judge Donald Eugene Scaglione ruled  DiePolder's donation restrictions are void perhaps he will rule that the Council endowment restrictions are void as well?

Source:

https://www.tampabay.com/news/hernando/2024/08/30/boy-scouts-explore-sale-500-acres-sand-hill-camp-brooksville/

My $0.01,  

 

[BetterWithCheddar]

Are we really talking about trading a 1,300-acre camp for 8 shower houses?

[InquisitiveScouter]

Yes, and cash.

[MikeS72]

58 minutes ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Are we really talking about trading a 1,300-acre camp for 8 shower houses?

No, not trading the entire camp.

Earlier post stated 450 acres of a 1,300 acre property.

Sandhill hosted this year's OA Section Conference.  Without seeing a map of which portion is on the block it is hard to assess, but my thoughts having been there would be that they are talking the front part of the camp which is mostly open, unused land that is right on a major multi lane highway (It took me less than 5 minutes to go from the parking area to Dick's Sporting Goods).

   I will also state that if that is what it takes to upgrade the showers/restrooms it is a small price to pay.  They are old, cramped, and do not offer any means of giving privacy when either adults or scouts of different genders are in the campsites.  We had several times when people did not realize someone was already using the facilities and ended up with either mixed genders present at the same time or adult/youth at the same time.  We looked at them as a youth protection nightmare sorely in need of upgrading.

 

[RememberSchiff]

On 8/30/2024 at 6:35 PM, RememberSchiff said:

Source:

https://www.tampabay.com/news/hernando/2024/08/30/boy-scouts-explore-sale-500-acres-sand-hill-camp-brooksville/

Above link has an aerial map of existing 1300 acre camp outlined  in red and proposed 500 acre subsection proposed to be sold for commercial and residential development. 

Camp appears to be bounded by a highway and spreading real estate development. 

Edited August 31 by RememberSchiff

[qwazse]

Seems like the proposed land could have all the lumber one would need to build some very stout shower houses.

Ever since the one hidden camera incident, I’ve become incredibly skeptical of individual showers. (Admittedly, there are too few datapoints to draw serious conclusions.)

Still, the property that’s been donated of the past 50 yearns has far outstripped the needs of the membership of many councils.

[MattR]

$600k per shower house? I'm sure they need new ones but what is this, $500/sq ft? Seems really pricey to me. And they need 8? Something doesn't sound right.

Just an idea but how about build one while teaching some scouts some trade crafts? Forget merit badges at camp, teach them some useful skills. High schools have votech classes, use those.

[RememberSchiff]

Protest of selling portions of camp planned for Sunday. 

 

 

Edited September 12 by RememberSchiff

[RememberSchiff]

On 9/12/2024 at 6:38 AM, RememberSchiff said:

Protest of selling portions of camp planned for Sunday. 

"...Beyond the entrance, Boy Scout officials set up two pickup trucks to guard the road, and rejected all attempts to interact with them, advising citizens and the news media who approached to stay away from the private property and refusing to be interviewed. 

In addition to TV and print media, local internet and TikTok presenters were on hand.

There was no response to an email request to Scout Executive Mike Butler for comment.  (however see Youtube video below.  Comments are not turned off, so there is posted feedback. )

Among the dignitaries in the crowd were County Commissioner-elect Ryan Amsler and County Commission candidate Luciano Vignali.

Both men said they were there to show support for those opposed to the sale of any of the land..."

Source:

https://www.suncoastnews.com/news/crowd-sends-message-to-scout-hierarchy-don-t-sell-the-land/article_25ade6f8-7758-11ef-90c4-37b47db6ca78.html

 

 

Council Update:

"...In June 2024, the Council was approached by the Withlacoochee River Electric Cooperative regarding a potential sale of an approximate 50-acre parcel located at the northwest corner of the camp, fronting Cortez Boulevard. While discussions are ongoing, no purchase agreement has been executed, and there is no set timeline for finalizing any agreement. If a sale proceeds, it will be followed by a thorough six-month due diligence period. Withlacoochee River Electric has been a steadfast supporter of Scouting, and we believe this could be a mutually beneficial collaboration.

Additionally, the Council Executive Board is exploring the potential to market approximately 450 acres on the northeast and eastern side of the camp. This evaluation is in the early stages, and no decisions have been made. We have engaged land planning consultants to assist with this process to ensure any actions align with our mission and benefit our Scouting programs..."

Source:

https://tampabayscouting.org/2024/council-update-on-sand-hill/94974

Sandy Hill Property Sale FAQ:

https://tampabayscouting.org/2024/sand-hill-qa/95070#1726487843819-c9d1e741-dd3869a7-2b4d

 

Edited September 23 by RememberSchiff

[yknot]

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

"...Beyond the entrance, Boy Scout officials set up two pickup trucks to guard the road, and rejected all attempts to interact with them, advising citizens and the news media who approached to stay away from the private property and refusing to be interviewed. 

In addition to TV and print media, local internet and TikTok presenters were on hand.

There was no response to an email request to Scout Executive Mike Butler for comment.  (however see Youtube video below.  Comments are not turned off, so there is posted feedback. )

Among the dignitaries in the crowd were County Commissioner-elect Ryan Amsler and County Commission candidate Luciano Vignali.

Both men said they were there to show support for those opposed to the sale of any of the land..."

Source:

https://www.suncoastnews.com/news/crowd-sends-message-to-scout-hierarchy-don-t-sell-the-land/article_25ade6f8-7758-11ef-90c4-37b47db6ca78.html

 

 

Council Update:

"...In June 2024, the Council was approached by the Withlacoochee River Electric Cooperative regarding a potential sale of an approximate 50-acre parcel located at the northwest corner of the camp, fronting Cortez Boulevard. While discussions are ongoing, no purchase agreement has been executed, and there is no set timeline for finalizing any agreement. If a sale proceeds, it will be followed by a thorough six-month due diligence period. Withlacoochee River Electric has been a steadfast supporter of Scouting, and we believe this could be a mutually beneficial collaboration.

Additionally, the Council Executive Board is exploring the potential to market approximately 450 acres on the northeast and eastern side of the camp. This evaluation is in the early stages, and no decisions have been made. We have engaged land planning consultants to assist with this process to ensure any actions align with our mission and benefit our Scouting programs..."

Source:

https://tampabayscouting.org/2024/council-update-on-sand-hill/94974

Sandy Hill Property Sale FAQ:

https://tampabayscouting.org/2024/sand-hill-qa/95070#1726487843819-c9d1e741-dd3869a7-2b4d

 

Good news. Hopefully some kind of public private land preservation deal can be worked out. It looks like an incredible piece of property still open space in a developing area where future parkland will be greatly needed. 

[RememberSchiff]

I am not as hopeful. I am hearing another what is right vs what is legal argument, seemingly:

Scout families,  neighbors : Stop this sale. It is not necessary (endowment) nor right. Act Trustworthy. 

Council:  What sale? What we are doing now or may do later is legal and whatever we do, it is for scouts. Trust us.

my $0.02,

[Eagle94-A1]

I am so glad that 1 camp I go to is not owned by the council, but rented to them.. Non-profit trust owns it, and will not give it to the council outright. Trusts handing over ownership of camps to councils has been a very bad move for about 20 years now, but especially in light of the ongoing bankruptcy.

[SiouxRanger]

23 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I am so glad that 1 camp I go to is not owned by the council, but rented to them.. Non-profit trust owns it, and will not give it to the council outright. Trusts handing over ownership of camps to councils has been a very bad move for about 20 years now, but especially in light of the ongoing bankruptcy.

Bingo! The only way to insure councils won't sell it off some time in the future is to never let councils have legal control. Period. And further, never permit anyone who has ever been a professional scout serve as a trustee or board member, and prohibit any direct donations or sales of assets has no  to a council or any entity controlled by a council.  It should always be the council pays the trust. If the council has no use for the camp at some point, the trust should provide for a "gift over" to some other entity, not the council or council affiliated, so that the council has no incentive to upset the donor's plan and acquire control.

And, beware the doctrine of cy pres.

The cy pres doctrine is a principle of law that courts use to save a charitable trust from failing when a charitable objective is originally or later becomes impossible or impracticable to fulfill.

 

 

IRS (.gov)

 

This doctrine would allow a judge to "determine" (technically, "find") that Clarence the farmer who donated the land to the trust for use by scouts "really intended that if things got dicey, the land ought to go to the council."

 

So, for example, the trust burns through its endowment, needs higher rent from the council to maintain the camp, and the council refuses to pay higher rent.  The trust is on the verge of financial collapse and the council rides in as the white knight to rescue the camp by seeking ownership of it. Thereby giving the council legal control and the power to sell it.

 

Of course, Clarence is deceased, perhaps even Clarence's kids are deceased-no one is left to speak for Clarence and his intent. Well, the council's attorneys are speaking for Clarence. Clarence's kids, and likely no other entity has the legal right to become involved in such a lawsuit-called "standing"-but there might be someone who can become involved; it depends on the precise wording of the trust.

 

The trust needs to be drafted such that the doctrine of cy pres never becomes a legal issue.

 

Every future possible path, foreseeable or not, needs to be provided for, either specific rules for specific conditions or events, or a generic result should be specified  for the unforeseeable, such as, "…and in all other events, the trustees shall deed the land to my descendants in equal shares…," or "to charity xyzzy…."