Which square knots to wear and why

[mashmaster]

1 hour ago, Navybone said:

What message indeed.  But if you step back and look at the individual wearing the uniform.  If the leader is grossly overweight, but has three knots, is that any better or worse than leader who follows the Scout oath to keep himself physically strong but is wearing 15?  What is the more important message that the scout should be getting from the leader?  And what is the message that the is really being sent to the scout.  Performance, leadership, living up to the Scout oath and law should always trump a minor uniform infraction.

 

I would also say, why would you just the overweight leader when you don't know the details and reasons behind it.  I am officially "obese" according to BMI number but I run multiple marathons a year.  people need to get beyond those first impressions.  

[Navybone]

12 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Wow! Let's see; long hair, ear-ring, nose ring, tattoos, body odor, bad breath

I do not see anything about hair, piercings, or tattoos in the handbook.  I am all about inclusion.  But if the discussion is about what the message to the scouts, we have to be serious about what really see. 

[Navybone]

8 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

I would also say, why would you just the overweight leader when you don't know the details and reasons behind it.  I am officially "obese" according to BMI number but I run multiple marathons a year.  people need to get beyond those first impressions.  

My original comment was in response to another comment about the message that the scout sees when a uniform is or is not correct.  I picked weight becasue it is an easy visual, as is looking at a uniform.  And regarding first impressions, I agree, same as how some might feel about the number of knots. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Navybone

[mashmaster]

Understood.   Now let's be honest.  The scouts and their parents aren't looking at the number of knots on the uniform.  That is only something that other leaders will look at.  I have plenty of knots and know other leaders with none and with a ton.  It doesn't affect me and if that is what people are focusing on, they need a reset.

[Navybone]

8 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Understood.   Now let's be honest.  The scouts and their parents aren't looking at the number of knots on the uniform.  That is only something that other leaders will look at.  I have plenty of knots and know other leaders with none and with a ton.  It doesn't affect me and if that is what people are focusing on, they need a reset.

Yes, one hundred time yes.  And I would argue that there is no serious correlation between knots and leadership or ability.  Some units nominate people, some do not.  

[Eagledad]

28 minutes ago, Navybone said:

I do not see anything about hair, piercings, or tattoos in the handbook.  I am all about inclusion.  But if the discussion is about what the message to the scouts, we have to be serious about what really see. 

And then what? No we don't have to have that discussion. The Oath and Law set how to judge others around us. Anything more is about who is judging, not the person being judged. The uniform code is specific. The discussion is really about how lenient we should be to ignoring the code. If you really want to pull your fitness generalizations, or rather unfitness, that is on you. My experience is youth are more accepting of other peoples physical and mental abilities and disabilities than adults. Ironic since adults generally view themselves as idealistic role models.

Scouting is a great program for youth until the adults get involved.

Barry

[ParkMan]

15 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

Boy, I feel as if I have covered this topic SO MANY TIMES over the past few years ... but suffice it to say, I think that to ask "what's the harm?" is to ask the wrong question. The better question is to ask "what message am I sending to the youth and to other leaders by the way I wear my uniform and its insignia?" 

When I see somebody with enough knots to make a third-world general blush, I don't feel any sense of awe, nor admiration; nor am I ever curious to know the "stories and experiences" that they feel I should be eager to hear with reverent ears. All I can think to myself is "a Scouter with this much supposed experience should know better. A Scouter with this much supposed experience should, one would think, be aware of current uniforming standards, and be modest enough or humble enough to abide by them."

A Scout, and Scouter, I hope, is obedient, even when it pertains to such "trivial" details as complying with present-day uniform expectations. So, yes, I agree that wearing an excess of insignia does share something of our journey - but sometimes, it may share parts of that journey that may not necessarily reflect the best or wisest paths that we have trod. 

The reason this comes up a lot is honestly captured in your response.

1. Why would you use the phase "with enough knots to make a third-world general blush"
2. Why do you not see awe from a lot of experience?
3. Why should "a Scouter with this much supposed experience should know better."?
4. Why does this "one would think, be aware of current uniforming standards, and be modest enough or humble enough to abide by them." matter?

Knots are .75" x 1.75" pieces of cloth you sew on a shirt. 

So you have 1, 2, 9, 20, or 30 - really so what?  Why do we infer that this means anything more than - hey, this person's done a lot of stuff?

It's a youth activity.   People have fun and dress up their uniforms.  Perhaps part of the issue with uniforms and Scouting isn't that people put a bunch of color on it - but that not enough people put a bunch of stuff on it.  Why do we make light of people and refer to them as third world generals?  It's all for fun.  Why try to make it all serious and haughty?

This isn't the Jr. Jr. ROTC.  It's Scouting - a game with a purpose.

 

 

[MattR]

We really need to crank up the contention over this. It might bury the story that USC just agreed to pay over $1B for sex abuse.

[ParkMan]

4 minutes ago, MattR said:

We really need to crank up the contention over this. It might bury the story that USC just agreed to pay over $1B for sex abuse.

Well, in that case...

I cannot believe how big a deal we make over what is essentially a non issue.  Why do we need to look down at Scouters because they want to put a few pieces of cloth on their shirt?  Aren't the leaders in the no-knot crowd simply trying to look superior by claiming "real Scouters don't wear knots?"  Are they not themselves breaking several parts of the Scout law - friendly, courteous, kind, cheerful.  Why should obedient trump all these others?

Is that better?

[Eagle94-A1]

My thoughts on the matter.

1.  regarding this quote: 

Quote

All I can think to myself is "a Scouter with this much supposed experience should know better. A Scouter with this much supposed experience should, one would think, be aware of current uniforming standards, and be modest enough or humble enough to abide by them."

How often does BSA policies change? How long after a policy change does it take to get full compliance? Venturing started on August 1, 1998, and almost 23 years later folks still call Venturing Crews, "Venture Crews," and Venturers, "Venture Scouts." 

 

2. Has anyone besides myself ever taken off insignia to be compliant with uniform, or in my case work, regulations,  and have very noticeable "spots" where the insignia was at?

3.  The Guide to Awards and Insignia State,

Quote

 The order for wearing medals and knots is at the wearer’s discretion; typically the medal or knot the wearer deems most important is worn on the wearer’s right.

Do you know how much of a pain it is to sew on one knot? Try removing and rearranging knots. Then multiply that by  the number of shirts you need to to that on? It can be a time consuming exercise, that leaves "spots."

I am not at the stage where I have 10 knots. But I have no problems with folks wearing more than 9, especially if they are in an older uniform shirt.

That said, am I compliant?  Yes. Although I have the older Sea Scout dress whites, both shirts have 6 knots, 4 reproduction Sea Scout white background knots from SHIPS STORES, and two official issue.

[The Latin Scot]

The irony I observe is that all those who brush of this issue claiming that Scouting is supposed to be "fun" don't seem to be having very much fun commenting on the subject. 😄

Again, I will tread lightly on the matter this time around. Those who make a big fuss over compliance with what should be a crystal clear, easy-to-follow protocol that takes only a few minutes of tailoring to obey, reveal more about themselves than a simple desire to "have fun and enjoy themselves." 🤨

😅

Edited March 26, 2021 by The Latin Scot

[ParkMan]

5 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

The irony I observe is that all those who brush of this issue claiming that Scouting is supposed to be "fun" don't seem to be having very much fun commenting on the subject. 😄

 

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here.  But, in general I would encourage that none of us read too much into how any of us writes.  We all have different professional backgrounds and different styles.  I enjoy the discussion on stuff like this.

5 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

Again, I will tread lightly on the matter this time around. Those who make a big fuss over compliance with what should be a crystal clear, easy-to-follow protocol that takes only a few minutes of tailoring to obey, reveal more about themselves than a simple desire to "have fun and enjoy themselves." 🤨

😅

I theme I'm inferring for your posts is one of obeying the rules.  As an adult, I don't put a whole lot of energy into worrying about obeying a BSA rule on how many knots to wear.  Yes, I do follow the BSA guidelines on uniforming because I have chosen to.  

For me, obeying the rule isn't the point.  There are somethings in Scouting that I follow without exception - YPT & the G2SS for example.  I do so because it's the right thing to do.  But it is not out of some sense of blind obedience.  

If I see a Scouter with 4 rows, I smile knowing the rule - but then get to know that Scouter.  Once you get somewhere above two rows, that tends to start signaling someone with a lot of history in the program.  To me that's interesting and I am curious about that person and their story.

Yet, I don't look at 4 rows and think less of a person because they haven't obeyed an arbitrary rule in the uniform guide.   We're all adults and I'm very comfortable that an experienced adult Scouter can bend a rule like that one.  To me it's those little aberrations that add character.  If someone was breaking a YPT rule, that would of course be a different discussion.

This is why I refer to it as a youth program.  In my mind I think we can allow a little flexibility in a rule like this one.  I would lobby that the BSA remove the three row rule all together.  What really is the harm if this rule went away?  In an era where we are strapped for volunteers and members is there really a harm to that occasional volunteer with 6 rows?

[KublaiKen]

I've noticed that all the Scouters with more knots than I have are braggarts and know-it-alls. The Scouters with fewer are greenhorns who can't really tell me much. The Scouters with the same number usually have the wrong ones or put them in a dumb order. Once I saw a guy with the exact same ones that I have and in the same order; I figured he probably just knows somebody at council.

[RememberSchiff]

 ...from grey-beard to greenhorn... must be Spring.

Let us not get ourselves tied up in knots.

Speaking of "Knots",  why not other knots besides square and overhand? 

My $0.01,

[The Latin Scot]

6 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

... Speaking of "Knots",  why not other knots besides square and overhand? 

My $0.01,

I have ALWAYS wondered this! Why not use different knots to represent different types of awards? Square knots for youth achievements, bowlines for heroism awards, two half-hitches for training awards, et cetera. It would add both variety and specificity to the insignia which merely using colors doesn't convey as effectively. A well-spent $0.01!