"There is no Class A" isn't a helpful statement most of the time, and people should stop posting it.

[The Latin Scot]

That's not the message I get; just because they license an outside, independent company to use a term like "class B" does not, in my eyes, count as an endorsement of the term for official purposes, nor that they "aren't that serious" about a policy. And I know that for me, having absolutely no connections with military culture or terminology, the terms class A and B mean next to nothing, while I can actually see how "field" uniforms (= those worn out and about in public and at events) and "activity" uniforms (casual clothing for rough/outdoor adventures) make more sense considering how the BSA operates.

And this brings up a good point - a lot of people seem to be understanding this issue through the lens of how the military operates, but that's an unproductive way to look at things since, as is SO OFTEN pointed out, the Boy Scouts of America is NOT a military organization, and while we may share some traditions (some only, mind you), we are NOT the same thing. And for those of us who have no experience with nor connection to the armed forces, it gets tiresome hearing all the comparisons when they don't apply to Scouting. 

[Eagledad]

National also says the uniform is not required, yet the Scout Handbook states how and when to wear the uniform properly (or it did when I was SM). Talk about contradictions. 

I don't believe using different names for uniform is corrupting the program. These names have been around since at least the 60s. Now, if someone was to say using Class B to describe a uniform is the cause of the fall of Patrol Method, my ears would perk up. But there needs a convincing argument. And donuts, good arguments and donuts would have some sway.

Barry

[Eagledad]

6 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

nd this brings up a good point - a lot of people seem to be understanding this issue through the lens of how the military operates, but that's an unproductive way to look at things since, as is SO OFTEN pointed out, the Boy Scouts of America is NOT a military organization, and while we may share some traditions (some only, mind you), we are NOT the same thing. And for those of us who have no experience with nor connection to the armed forces, it gets tiresome hearing all the comparisons when they don't apply to Scouting. 

Tiresome? Most folks who have no  experience with nor connection to the armed forces don't even know they are military terms for the uniform. They just think they scouting terms.

You and I rarely disagree, if ever at all before, but with all that has happened to the program in the last 30 years, I feel this is much ado about nothing. In fact, since it is a common term used in scouting, I would rather keep it just so we have something that links today's program to past tradition.

Barry

[TAHAWK]

I suppose anyone with authority can define a "uniform" as consisting of this or that.  What does BSA - not the many unofficial sites or a council or unit - but BSA itself say?

The BSA usually refers to the uniform as "the uniform" - no adjectives.   See, e.g., https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Official_Policy_WEB.pdf ; 

http://www.trcscouting.org/files/d/usr/65/Scout uniform.pdf

The final Boy Scout Handbook (13th Ed.) referred to the Scout uniform as "the Scout uniform" - no adjectives and as "BSA's official Boy Scout Uniform (sometimes called the 'field uniform')."  it is also often called the "Class A uniform" or the "dress uniform".

The last Boy Scout Handbook also says: "When you're headed outdoors to do something more active, you can [sic] pull on a T-shirt with Scout pants or shorts, or wear other clothing that is appropriate for the events of the day.  This is sometimes called an 'activity uniform.'"

BSA says it has a site that answers all questions about uniforming, but it answers almost no questions on that topic.

The current offerings from BSA Clothing include six visually different  button-up shirts for male Scouts alone, not mentioning all prior button-up BSA "uniform" shirts.

 

Typical BSA "clarity."  

 

BSA at least suggests that it official "methods" have some importance.  Reality shows otherwise, in uniforming as in outdoor program, thriftiness, patrol method, and leadership development. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by TAHAWK

[Buggie]

1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

Curious; anyone know why it is referred to as the "field" uniform?

On the Parade Field or Review Field. Thus the fancy duds. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Buggie
doubled my post in the post

[yknot]

Buggie, thanks for BSA origin of field connection. Coming from more of a wildlife biology background, means something totally different to me lol. 

[TAHAWK]

45 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

National also says the uniform is not required, yet the Scout Handbook states how and when to wear the uniform properly (or it did when I was SM). Talk about contradictions. 

I don't believe using different names for uniform is corrupting the program. These names have been around since at least the 60s. Now, if someone was to say using Class B to describe a uniform is the cause of the fall of Patrol Method, my ears would perk up. But there needs a convincing argument. And donuts, good arguments and donuts would have some sway.

Barry

 

Wearing a uniform (i.e., looking the same, clothing-wise) has slipped to an aspiration, as has  the Patrol Method and, as part of that method, youth leading. Nothing wrong with aspirations. See "Leave No Trace."  But what does BSA do to recognize actually achievingthe Patrol Method or to discourage adults from refusing to use that method?  Zip, zero, nada.  Actually doing it is not even part of Journey to "Excellence."  Even the "lip service" is fading.

A Scoutmaster who has taken no training and whose PLs cannot tell you the name of their patrol is named "Scoutmaster of the Year" here due to six sorta' Eagles and leading the Council in popcorn sales and Friends of Scouting donations.  Troop had two indoor weekend JYE "weekend campouts" and summer camp at a merit badge mill that he skipped.

 Further, a real outdoor program is not even a serious aspiration for BSA, so trivial are the current outdoor advancement requirements.

Thriftiness, as defined for the first fifty years of Scouting, is not even an aspiration.  Scouting now overtly begs for money.

So, yes, there are more serious problems in this declining age.

Edited July 24, 2019 by TAHAWK

[RichardB]

So what is it called to just wear the neckerchief? 

[DeaconLance]

30 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

 

Wearing a uniform (i.e., looking the same, clothing-wise) has slipped to an aspiration, as has  the Patrol Method and, as part of that method, youth leading. Nothing wrong with aspirations. See "Leave No Trace."  But what does BSA do to recognize actually achievingthe Patrol Method or to discourage adults from refusing to use that method?  Zip, zero, nada.  Actually doing it is not even part of Journey to "Excellence."  Even the "lip service" is fading.

 

Patrol method is objective #9 on JTE.

[Eagledad]

10 minutes ago, RichardB said:

So what is it called to just wear the neckerchief? 

Hmm, good question. Embarrassing? 

Barry

[DeaconLance]

6 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Hmm, good question. Embarrassing? 

Barry

What constitutes the uniform in many poorer parts of the world.

[David CO]

21 minutes ago, RichardB said:

So what is it called to just wear the neckerchief? 

Nudist. 

[Eagledad]

1 minute ago, DeaconLance said:

What constitutes the uniform in many poorer parts of the world.

There are as many answers as there are poorer, and richer, parts of the world. Managing resources is part of maturing growth. Or I mean to say managing the challenges of resources is part of the growth of experience. The bar should always be set high so challenge and growth continue.

Barry

[Eagledad]

22 minutes ago, DeaconLance said:

Patrol method is objective #9 on JTE.

Yes, but the JTE is asking for a "yes" or "no" of program procedures. The context of the discussion is more toward an idealist lifestyle process for learning from the personal decisions within the group experience. That isn't always easy to answer with a simple yes or no. 

Barry

 

[dkurtenbach]

27 minutes ago, RichardB said:

So what is it called to just wear the neckerchief? 

"Class N."  BSA finally came around to the idea of allowing neckerchief wear with activity uniforms and non-uniform clothing.  The purpose is to make it possible to identify youth and youth groups as Scouts when they are out being active -- camping, hiking, working on service projects.  That is, to raise the visibility of Scouting in the community even when youth aren't in recognizable uniforms.  And as RichardB notes, it is a widespread practice around the world.  If we want to promote the practice of wearing neckerchiefs when we're otherwise not in BSA uniform, giving that practice an unofficial but easily understood name raises the status of wearing the neckerchief by itself:  "Class N" makes it sound like "neckerchief only" is actually a recognized uniform category along with "Class A" and "Class B."