When and how to ask a CM to step down

[EagleDad79]

We have a scenario where our current CM is holding on to that title as a trophy and using it less as a way to promote Scouting. Some of the issues have been not attending Scout activities, not leading a solid Pack program(Pack meetings), chasing away good families who ask questions, not reliably providing financial reports and just basically holding the whole Pack tightly in the CM's hand.

In asking the CM to step down and allow for new leaders to grow and move up with their Scouts, the CM became a bit hysterical and defensive and then began offering up positions(ACM) as a way to try and subdue the request for resignation.

Any suggestions out there on how to help a Pack move forward and replace a CM that quite frankly may have stayed too long?

Thanks

[John-in-KC]

Welcome, @EagleDad79, to scouter. 

If you are the IH or COR, it’s easy. Find a new CM, train him, then have a big retirement party for the old guy, thanking him for dedicated and passionate service to the Pack.

If you’re the Committee Chair, it’s time to have a business cup of coffee with the COR.

Anyone else, and you bring your concerns to the Committee Chair. 

[FireStone]

If attendance at activities is an issue, that seems like a pretty easy jumping-off point of conversation with a CC. The CM should attend a minimum XX% of Pack events/activities (insert whatever number seems reasonable for your unit). If the CM can't fulfill that, they should step down.

[perdidochas]

On 6/23/2019 at 11:16 PM, EagleDad79 said:

We have a scenario where our current CM is holding on to that title as a trophy and using it less as a way to promote Scouting. Some of the issues have been not attending Scout activities, not leading a solid Pack program(Pack meetings), chasing away good families who ask questions, not reliably providing financial reports and just basically holding the whole Pack tightly in the CM's hand.

In asking the CM to step down and allow for new leaders to grow and move up with their Scouts, the CM became a bit hysterical and defensive and then began offering up positions(ACM) as a way to try and subdue the request for resignation.

Any suggestions out there on how to help a Pack move forward and replace a CM that quite frankly may have stayed too long?

Thanks

The CM serves at the discretion of the COR.  The Pack committee needs to recommend to the COR that the CM be replaced.

[ParkMan]

The Committee Chair and/or Chartered Organization Representative can remove a Cubmaster. 

• The Committee Chair is the top volunteer in the pack and is responsible for making sure that qualified adults are in place to provide the program.  If the Committee Chair doesn't believe the Cubmaster can fulfill the role, then it's within the Committee Chair's realm of responsibility to remove the Cubmaster.  
• The Chartered Orgaization Representative approves everyone who volunteers in the program.  If the COR no longer feels the Cubmaster can fulfill his/her responsibilities then the COR can remove a Cubmaster.

Removing a volunteer is a big deal - especially a Cubmaster.  In reality, the other adults should all be in agreement that this is the right decision before taking such a drastic step.  Though a Committee Chair could remove a Cubmaster, if I were a COR I certainly would want to know why and be consulted.  Further, I would expect that under most circumstances the CC would have discussed this with the Pack Committee as well.  If these things didn't happen, I would likely question whether the CC were making good decisions in their own role.

Edited June 28, 2019 by ParkMan
typo

[HashTagScouts]

The CC cannot remove a CM, nor a SM.  Only the COR/IH can remove someone.

[ParkMan]

4 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

The CC cannot remove a CM, nor a SM.  Only the COR/IH can remove someone.

From scouting.org - https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/how-cub-scouting-is-organized/

Quote

Pack Committee Chair

The top volunteer in the pack is the Pack Committee Chair.  They are responsible for ensuring enough qualified adult volunteers are in place to provide the program. 

Further on the same page:

Quote

Chartered Organization Representative

This person appoints the Pack Committee Chair and approves all adult leaders.

Seems pretty clear to me.  The COR appoints the CC.  The CC in turn then secures enough adults to run the program.  The COR approves the CC's choice.  Notice that the only position appointed by the COR is the CC. 

Further, Committee Chair, as the top volunteer, leads the adult team that runs the pack - that includes the Cubmaster.  If the Cubmaster isn't doing his/her job, it's the CC's duty to replace him/her.

Again, these discussions are very academic because any CC/COR worth their salt would jointly discuss this before such a decision.  But, technically according to the BSA's own description, this is how it works.

[Thunderbird]

@ParkMan  I think that might be old information.  If you look at the current adult application forms, there is no longer any place for committee chairs to sign.  There is a place for the chartered organization head (EO/IH) or representative (COR), but that's it.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Thunderbird

[ParkMan]

41 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

@ParkMan  I think that might be old information.  If you look at the current adult application forms, there is no longer any place for committee chairs to sign.  There is a place for the chartered organization head (EO/IH) or representative (COR), but that's it.

I think they redid this page only two or three years ago.

The signature is consistent with the idea that the COR has to approve the volunteer.  It doesn't mean the COR appoints them or supervises them.

The BSA literature is pretty clear - the COR oversees the pack on behalf of the CO.  As I've defended numerous times, the COR ultimately can set whatever policies are appropriate for the pack.  But, week to week, the CC manages the operation of the pack.  The CM runs the program of the pack.  As such, program is one component of the operation of the pack.  Because of the importance of program, the CM has a special status.  But, he/she is still a member of the adult team overseen by the CC.

We all love our CM's.  But, they are still a member of the team.  The BSA was pretty clear here.  CM's report to the CC.  CC's reoort to the COR.

Edited June 29, 2019 by ParkMan
expanded the thought

[David CO]

15 hours ago, ParkMan said:

 

The signature is consistent with the idea that the COR has to approve the volunteer.  It doesn't mean the COR appoints them or supervises them.

 

The CC will eventually need to discuss the dismissal of a volunteer with the COR, since the CC needs the signature of the COR when it comes time to replace the volunteer.  The COR is almost certain to ask what happened with the old scout leader, particularly if that scout leader had been in the position for a while.

It would make more sense for them to have this discussion sooner rather than later.