Activity approval

[TAHAWK]

💀

[David CO]

8 hours ago, karunamom3 said:

I have no problem with a committee  review, but in this case it is the CC/COR only (Same person) that wants all calendar events emailed to him alone & he decides yes or no and made it clear that he doesn't need to provide an explanation. It's his decision. Period.

I understand your frustration and agree with you that this is not the best way to demonstrate leadership. It sounds like he needs to be more collaborative with his colleagues. 

I think you should try to understand that he is not breaking any rules. The COR actually does have that authority. He is accountable to the IH. So he does need, if asked, to provide an explanation to the IH. The IH is accountable to the Chartered Organization. The Chartered Organization owns the unit.

I am wondering if this is his personal leadership style, or if this is the leadership style of the Chartered Organization.

Edited June 15, 2019 by David CO

[David CO]

On 6/12/2019 at 11:10 PM, karunamom3 said:

 

-he & his wife have been around for 40+ years and want to do things the same way they always have.

-Troop is completely adult led, no patrols. At the meeting new leadership pushed for patrols/boy led & we got a resounding no... 'patrol method doesn't work for us. We tried it in the past. It's no good'

 

They can't be completely inflexible if they were willing to try it in the past. What motivated them to try it? What happened? Was there a problem? Was somebody injured? Did they have complaints? 

One thing about us old duffers is that we love to talk about the past. A friendly, non-confrontational conversation might reveal a lot about what they are thinking and what motivates their decisions.

[elitts]

13 hours ago, David CO said:

I think you should try to understand that he is not breaking any rules. The COR actually does have that authority. He is accountable to the IH. So he does need, if asked, to provide an explanation to the IH. The IH is accountable to the Chartered Organization. The Chartered Organization owns the unit.

 

Let's be clear though, the COR does not officially (as in, per BSA policies) have the "authority" to a veto right over any and all troop activities at his or her whim.  If that were supposed to be a part of the official process for determining the annual schedule, then it would be a part of the trainings on the Scouting website.  The fact that the CO "owns the unit" doesn't mean they have the authority to do whatever they want, it just means they have the power to.  There are still proper and improper ways to do things.

But there's no arguing that if the CO insists that the troop give the COR that power, there's not really anything anyone can do about it.  The local district exec might agree to have a chat with the COR about "the right way to do things", but the only method the district has to stop a CO from doing this would be to pull their charter, and that's not going to happen over a tin god COR.  They'll just tell you to find another troop.

The idea of "breaking rules" really isn't very relevant since BSA doesn't actually issue "rules", they just offer "guidelines" and "best practices".

Edited June 16, 2019 by elitts

[TAHAWK]

"4.. Getting Troop Committee support

            SPL presents written Annual Plan to Troop Committee and asks them to support plan.

            SM attends same meeting and asks the Committee to support the Plan.

            Because the youth leaders are to plan, the Troop Committee gives them the benefit of the doubt."

[ParkMan]

1 hour ago, elitts said:

Let's be clear though, the COR does not officially (as in, per BSA policies) have the "authority" to a veto right over any and all troop activities at his or her whim.  If that were supposed to be a part of the official process for determining the annual schedule, then it would be a part of the trainings on the Scouting website.  The fact that the CO "owns the unit" doesn't mean they have the authority to do whatever they want, it just means they have the power to.  There are still proper and improper ways to do things.

But there's no arguing that if the CO insists that the troop give the COR that power, there's not really anything anyone can do about it.  The local district exec might agree to have a chat with the COR about "the right way to do things", but the only method the district has to stop a CO from doing this would be to pull their charter, and that's not going to happen over a tin god COR.  They'll just tell you to find another troop.

The idea of "breaking rules" really isn't very relevant since BSA doesn't actually issue "rules", they just offer "guidelines" and "best practices".

Sort of.  The COR is not typically part of the approval process for unit activities.  But, should the COR feel a need to act and make a decision, the COR has that right.  The COR has whatever authority the COR feels he/she needs to have.  They supervise the unit on behalf of the CO.  If the COR feels that they need to micromanage the unit, then that is their decision and well within their authority.

I think these arguments often confuse intent with authority.  It is not the intent of the BSA system that the COR overule the unit. Similarly, it is not the intent of the BSA system that the CC overrule the Scoutmaster and/or SPL.  The defined Troop structure creates a framework where a group of responsible volunteers can work together to implement a well balanced system.  In that Troop structure, decision making ability is delegated to the right people in the organization to make good decisions.  But that same system provides for a clearly defined oversight structure so that if bad decisions are made, reasonable people can correct those mistakes.

Of course, this all assumes that everyone involved is working with the best of intentions in a professional way.  This forum sees lots of cases where the structure breaks down.

[karunamom3]

On 6/15/2019 at 11:23 PM, ParkMan said:

It is not the intent of the BSA system that the COR overule the unit. Similarly, it is not the intent of the BSA system that the CC overrule the Scoutmaster and/or SPL.  The defined Troop structure creates a framework where a group of responsible volunteers can work together to implement a well balanced system.

Of course, this all assumes that everyone involved is working with the best of intentions in a professional way.  This forum sees lots of cases where the structure breaks down.

Thank you. Our frame work is not well balanced unfortunately. The troop has become divided into what feels like two separate groups. 

The structure has broken down. Council has been notified... we are leaving after summer camp, 4 adults and 4 or 5 boys out of a small unit of 11. It's a shame really, but after trying for 6+mo I am done.

[elitts]

On 6/15/2019 at 11:23 PM, ParkMan said:

Sort of.  The COR is not typically part of the approval process for unit activities.  But, should the COR feel a need to act and make a decision, the COR has that right.  The COR has whatever authority the COR feels he/she needs to have.  They supervise the unit on behalf of the CO.  If the COR feels that they need to micromanage the unit, then that is their decision and well within their authority.

I think these arguments often confuse intent with authority.  It is not the intent of the BSA system that the COR overule the unit. Similarly, it is not the intent of the BSA system that the CC overrule the Scoutmaster and/or SPL.  The defined Troop structure creates a framework where a group of responsible volunteers can work together to implement a well balanced system.  In that Troop structure, decision making ability is delegated to the right people in the organization to make good decisions.  But that same system provides for a clearly defined oversight structure so that if bad decisions are made, reasonable people can correct those mistakes.

Of course, this all assumes that everyone involved is working with the best of intentions in a professional way.  This forum sees lots of cases where the structure breaks down.

In a strict sense of Authority=Power, I will agree that the COR has whatever "authority" it thinks it needs because there's no one that can tell them no.  But I think it's very important for people to keep in mind that just because you have the power to do something doesn't make you the authorized agent/actor in a particular situation.  And I don't think that's just an issue of rationalization or sophistry.  Sometimes in many areas of life we may have to make decisions and take actions that don't follow the established program, and if the situation requires it, fine.  But we should never forget when we do something like that, that we aren't doing things the right way. 

That's really all I was trying to say. 

Specific to the OP's case, there's nothing anyone can do to stop the COR from behaving like the Lord of the Calendar, but that doesn't mean the people around him/her should ever let the COR think that's the "right" (per the program) way to do things.

Edited June 17, 2019 by elitts

[David CO]

8 hours ago, karunamom3 said:

Thank you. Our frame work is not well balanced unfortunately. The troop has become divided into what feels like two separate groups. 

The structure has broken down. Council has been notified... we are leaving after summer camp, 4 adults and 4 or 5 boys out of a small unit of 11. It's a shame really, but after trying for 6+mo I am done.

It is not unusual for factions or cliques to form within a unit. It is almost unavoidable in a larger unit of 40 or 50 scouts.