EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY Brotherhood Time Requirement Change

[TAHAWK]

1 hour ago, Oldscout448 said:

No he most certainly can not.

He may not, but he can, likely has, and likely will.  Rules do not apply to "special" people.

[Oldscout448]

Ah yes,  I had failed to consider that he might be one the "special " people.  Perhaps he deserves a special ceremony.   Anyone else remember the Iroquois gauntlet?

Out of respect to the guide to Safe scouting, we could forgo the rocks and tomahawks and just throw rotten squash and pumpkins and tomatoes.

[my_three_sons]

I discussed it a few other scoutmasters at the call out ceremony and apparently he asked every troop but none of them took him up on it.  Our chapter has been in disarray for a while the meetings are sporadic and differ on day of the week and time.  Every year I try to get the members excited about the OA and they last 2 or 3 meetings before just fading away.

 

[John-in-KC]

On 8/18/2019 at 1:45 PM, skeptic said:

The National Lodge needs tor to reevaluate the history and find a way to reinstate the mystique and actual "honor" in being a member.  It has been beaten to death, but there need to be more actual limits on eligibility that make it less a "gimme".  They sill have a purpose and in ur council do help, though, as noted, getting higher participation is difficult.  But that has as much to do with the lesser honor issues than simply the over-scheduled lives of the scouts in general. 

 

I could not agree more. 

[Scouter4Family]

On 8/18/2019 at 1:45 PM, skeptic said:

The National Lodge needs tor to reevaluate the history and find a way to reinstate the mystique and actual "honor" in being a member.  It has been beaten to death, but there need to be more actual limits on eligibility that make it less a "gimme".  They sill have a purpose and in ur council do help, though, as noted, getting higher participation is difficult.  But that has as much to do with the lesser honor issues than simply the over-scheduled lives of the scouts in general. 

 

Good comment. I agree that elegibility has become a little more of a “gimme” over the years but that is true across the board for all programs in our current culture across the U.S., not just in the OA or scouting for that matter. I don’t think the honor is missing from the program, it is missing from today’s youth as a whole.  Today’s culture is more concerned about image than they are about honor, and unfortunately that shows up in our scouts and sometimes even the adult leaders wanting their kids to be the “popular” scouts. In turn-sometimes....most of the time in my opinion-the more popular scouts get voted into OA instead of the scouts that may put the needed time into the program, or the scouts that have been highly active in the troops activities.

 

On 8/18/2019 at 6:00 PM, my_three_sons said:

We had 3 scout eligible this spring and two were elected then a short time before the Call Out ceremony out Chapter adult leader call to tell me that he could put the third scout in since he can put in deserving scouts that don't get elected.  I told him that I have never heard of that before and no the troops vote can stand but he replied that there weren't many scout elected for our chapter.  Sometimes it feels like they want more Arrowmen just to have a larger audience to sell all of their OA swag to.

I can’t help but wonder if that is what happened in this case and the chapter leader gave the opportunity to make a right.  If this is what happened then I would have no issue at all guiding that “deserving” scout onto the right path (for the good of the program and the scout if it was his ambition)and keep it between chapter leader and SM. Right or wrong, this kind of stuff has always happened long before cell phones and forums were available for proof of the action. Just my opinion. 

Happy Scouting!!

Edited September 2, 2019 by Scouter4Family
Punctuation.

[John-in-KC]

@Scouter4Family, welcome

[WisconsinMomma]

My oldest just did his Ordeal and they made some announcements about upcoming activities.  There are three regions in our council.  One region is having an ice cream social, and I think another is having a lock-in.  (fun stuff)  But two of the regions are looking for leadership people.  

We were not expecting our oldest to get invited to OA, but on the other hand, he's becoming a stronger camper and person as he is getting older and more experienced.  Top kid in the troop? Nope, but he's making his way, little bit by little bit. 

Edited September 8, 2019 by WisconsinMomma

[The Latin Scot]

I think it's always helpful to remember that in Scouting, there is no "top kid." Comparisons should have no meaning in Scouting; a Scout cannot be behind or ahead of others because the only person in the world who can decide where that Scout "should" be is the Scout himself. The very point of Scouting is to train these young people to compare who they are now to what they could become. As parents, leaders, and friends, we should work with our Scouts where they are, not where we think they 'should' be. The goal is not to climb higher than the other Scouts, but rather to reach further than we had before.

The core of the Order of the Arrow is service, and the core of service is putting others before ourselves - it's the very antithesis of trying to be better than others, which is a lesson more and more people forget these days. The Scout who ought to be elected to the Order (whether such is the case in reality or not) is not he who tries to be THE best, but rather he who tries to be HIS best - and it sounds like that's what your oldest is trying to do. That's the kind of person the OA needs, because the only way to be our best self is learn to become selfless.

[mrkstvns]

10 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

I think it's always helpful to remember that in Scouting, there is no "top kid." ...

One day I'll have to introduce you to MY kid...

[TAHAWK]

At one Scoutmaster Basic training course  that I was privileged to lead years ago, one dad argued, following your reasoning, that anyone (expressly, his son) who wanted to be in OA should be made a member.  As the discussion went on, he expressed the same opinion as regards being a Patrol Leader (The job should rotate every few weeks.") or Eagle Scout ("Why should only 1% get it?!).  Then, and now, I respectfully reject that argument.  Life does not operate that way, and we do not prepare lads for life with the "all the children are above average" approach..   By all means, praise all achievement, however modest, and arrange opportunities for all to achieve.  However, some achieve more, and recognition of that achievement, we were taught back then, is not so much to reward the achiever as to encourage the others.  (and not like Admiral Byng) 

When OA was more exclusive - The National Society of Scout Honor Campers - it was more desired - resulting in more "hands" for service and, in our lodge, greater participation in camping in our patrols.  

[The Latin Scot]

I wouldn't follow my reasoning to the conclusion that everybody who merely wants something should get it, and I do not believe that anyone who wants to be in the OA should be voted in. I merely state that those who try to do their best, and who work the hardest to be their best, are the kind of members the OA needs, and whom I opine deserve it most. But kids who don't try, who don't care, or who don't work for it, shouldn't be shoehorned in merely because they are popular, older, or worst of all, just because their parents insist upon it. Far from it; I agree that membership in the OA should mean something - but the nature of its exclusivity ought to be based on the better principle of self-determined effort, not because one Scout is perceived to be 'better' than others.

Edited September 9, 2019 by The Latin Scot

[Oldscout448]

Getting back to the original topic, it seems I was quite wrong . I was fairly certain that the 10 months to 6 months change would have little or no impact.  Whoops!  I had failed to consider that they might actually change to date of the fall ordeal from the first or second weekend in October, where it has been for decades,  to the first weekend in November.  So that the spring and fall Ordeals are exactly 6 months apart.  

So if we hold the Brotherhood ceremony at 12:01am Sunday morning, the arrowmen who went through their ordeal last spring can attend.

Clearly a crafty and clever idea. But I'm not sure how I feel about it just yet.

I'm all for scouts continuing on in the order, but is going from 12 to 15  ( or even 20) new brotherhood members worth the enormous drain this will be on the ceremonies team?

They rarely get more than 6.hours sleep on Fri night,  now they  would  get even less on Saturday night.

But the big deal on my eyes, is the fact that  November 'weather is a whole lot different from October weather.  And we have gone on at length on this forum about how most younger scouts no longer  have the skills to "rough it" anymore.  It is not unreasonable to expect a greater number of ordeal candidates  sleeping in dining halls or bunkhouses.   Thus cheapening (no that's not the right word ) lessening  the symbolism and the probable effect of their ordeal experience. 

And for what?    A few more brotherhood members a bit faster?

Is the OA  about providing a scout with the most meaningful, hopefully life changing Ordeal possible? 

Or is it now about the numbers?

 

[desertrat77]

4 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

Is the OA  about providing a scout with the most meaningful, hopefully life changing Ordeal possible? 

Or is it now about the numbers?

 

Alas, nowadays it's only about numbers and designing lodge flaps.

Edited September 20, 2019 by desertrat77

[Oldscout448]

Well the fall area ( our lodge is big enough it has areas made up of 4-5 chapters ) Ordeal is this weekend.  Lows temps 20-25.  That's cabin camping for a lot of troops in this area.  I'm wondering if they will put all the candidates in the lodge Friday night.  Safety and all that.  

 

On a somewhat related topic,  our chapter was asked to perform the Ordeal ceremony.  The request came last Sunday!  Two of our best guys are taking their  gf  to their high schools homecoming dance.

Yikes!

Edited November 5, 2019 by Oldscout448

[WAKWIB]

On 11/5/2019 at 7:42 AM, Oldscout448 said:

Well the fall area ( our lodge is big enough it has areas made up of 4-5 chapters ) Ordeal is this weekend.  Lows temps 20-25.  That's cabin camping for a lot of troops in this area.  I'm wondering if they will put all the candidates in the lodge Friday night.  Safety and all that.  

 

On a somewhat related topic,  our chapter was asked to perform the Ordeal ceremony.  The request came last Sunday!  Two of our best guys are taking their  gf  to their high schools homecoming dance.

Yikes!

Hopefully some replacement ceremonial team members were discovered and trained in time, (under short notice, I know).   The camping situation will be what it will be. That part is probably out of your hands.  Decent ceremonies around a roaring fire will be impressive, and the day of cheerful service should go on, even if the Scouts sleep inside.