So how do you know it's time?

[scoutmom]

After following Goodkidsmom's posts in the Working with Kids forum, I'm wondering when do you make the decision to move to another Troop.

 

It seems like a simple question, but it's really very complicated. There have been a ton of changes my son's Troop since the beginning of the year. Some for the better, but not all. I find some of the new leadership to be intolerable. They have no respect for new people to the Troop, regardless of their Scouting experience and they have even less respect for women in Scouting.

 

I am currently on the outs with most of the leadership (both program and committee) because I open my mouth when they are doing something that violates BSA policy. Because of this, I am concerned about my son's treatment in this Troop. I have watched these same leaders single out a Scout who's parents also spoke up when things weren't right. My son has not been mis-treated - yet - but I am concerned.

 

I have been talking with my son about the Troop. He is not happy with all of the recent changes, nor with the current leadership. He describes it as lots more yelling and a lot less understanding. He's not ready to make a move because he doesn't want to leave his friends. I want him to "own" his Scouting activities. It needs to be his. So, I don't really want to force him to change if he doesn't want to. And I don't want to sit back and watch him be singled out because his mother has a big mouth.

 

Any advice?

[EagleInKY]

Great question mom. The talk of "moving troops" has come up time and time again. How do you know it's time for your situation? Not an easy one, but I'll give throw a few logs on the fire and see what fires up.

First of all, realize that, to your son, this is a huge decision. It's equivalent in scale to you changing jobs, changing churches or moving to a new house. These are not easy decisions for adults.  At his level, this is just as big of a decision.

I do have some experience at this.  At age 11, my dad was asked to start a new troop, so we left our current troop and moved across town.  I don't remember being consulted on the decision, but I believe I was.  I know it was a good move for us.  Also, last year our pack decided to break ties with a local troop and start our own.  It was a difficult decision, and similar in many ways to what you are thinking about.

Here are some questions for you (and particularly, your son) to ponder:

 

What does the future look like for you at this troop?  Will you be happy?  Will you be able to advance?  Will you learn and grow?

Have you exhausted your efforts to effect change?  (Both from a troop committee and youth point-of-view.)

Is there any potential shake-up in leadership that may create an opportunity for change?  (such as a SM retiring or a problem scout moving on)

What other troops options are there?  Do you really know that much about them?  Are you running from one problem troop into another?

Step back - Am I the problem?  Are there others feeling the same way?  If not, is it because they don't care/don't know any better?

Finally, if you do leave the troop, leave quietly.  Let the CO, Committee Chairman and SM know exactly why you are leaving (you may also include the DE & UC in that list).  Don't recruit others to follow you or try to hurt the troop in your leaving.  Hopefully, they will learn from the mistake, see the light, and make changes for the better.  I know that when we broke ties with the local troop, it really shook things up.  They're trying to turn things around.  Hopefully, their scouts will benefit by the decision we made.

[Laurie]

Oh boy, can I ever relate to this one. Since your son is unhappy with the troop, ask him what he would like to do. We've been there, not too long ago in fact, and the transition was not smooth. Visiting district events and taking part in district-wide training exposed our son to other troops, other Scouts, and other leaders. One man in particular got his attention because he was sincere and remembered his name and that he'd recently been injured--little things but important nevertheless. So our son asked if he could visit this man's troop, not even knowing that he was a SA, just that he was somehow involved and he liked the way he treated him. He visited the troop, and he came home happy, excited, and ready for the next week's meeting. He admitted later that he didn't expect to like it, that he really didn't want to leave but thought in seeing another troop he'd find his was ok afterall. Quite an admission, I think.

 

So, in a nutshell, your son already seems to know it's time to move on. Get him thinking. He has said he's unhappy, now get him to identify what it is that he does not like. Ask him what he would change if he could change something. Suggest he think through what Scouting should be (the handbook helps) and then compare that to what he is currently part of. Ask him if he has talked to his SM or other adult leaders about his concerns. Ask him if he would like to. And, this is the hard one, do not offer your opinion. Simply ask those rather open-ended questions to get him to think about what he really wants in a troop, what he can and cannot do to make a change, and what he should do next.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

[Laurie]

What EagleInKY said Good advice, particularly about leaving quietly. We left quietly, but our son did leave with a friend who was also looking. This was actually the hard part for my husband and I--we didn't want to create problems by leaving and seeming to want to hurt the troop. Our reasons were made known to the SM and CR, and that was it. In spite of our leaving quietly, in spite of not speaking poorly about the troop but simply moving on, some nasty rumors were begun. We were stunned, but it simply confirmed that this was the right time to move on.

[MrsSmith]

Any chance that there are enough disgruntled families to change the troop, instead of changing troops? Don't discount the resolve of mothers who believe their families' time is being wasted. Last year we knew there was something wrong with our troop, too. I did not know where to start, so I came here early this year looking for answers. I got lots of suggestions. Among them were, study the material, get trained yourself, and then dig in. I found other families who were unhappy that the troop was not following the program. We took over the Committee, tied the Committee Chair to his Lazy Boy, got rid of the old Scoutmaster, insisted that one adult in each family register as a volunteer and get some basic training. We came up with a troop guidebook to put some of these things in writing (more difficult to ignore written guidelines). We recruited a new Scoutmaster who is committed to a BOY RUN and things are going great now. It can be done. If you are willing to leave, what do you have to lose by trying to change things first?

[scoutmom]

Thanks all.

 

Eagle - you have given me a terrific list of things to think about and to discuss with my son. I do realize what a big decision this is for him. That's why I'm here looking for advice. And so far it's all good stuff.

 

Laurie - I am active on out District Committee and am on the Training Team (been to training for my position and then some Mrs. Smith), and my son joins me on many of the District/Council functions I attend. He is learning the value of networking! The spin I put on it, is that when he's ready to work on an Eagle project, he'll have lots of resources to access. But, what I'm really thinking is that when he has finally had enough, he'll already know some adult leaders and he might feel a little more comfortable walking into a romm of strangers.

 

I don't see anything for ME to salvage in this Troop. I will be leaving the committee. We HAVE HAD a change in leadership, and that is the root of the whole problem. The only salvation I see is if our Charter Org steps in. Which they may do, because others who are not happy have taken this on to the COR and IH.

 

As for leaving quietly, I realize that it would be the tactful thing to do. Don't know if I can exercise tact in this situation, however. At the very least the SM, CC, DE, UC, CD and probably our Scout Executive will all know what has occurred in this Troop over tha last year and why I felt in necessary to leave. I have a good reputation in the District and in the Council so hopefully, anything I say will lead to positive changes for this Troop. But there are just too many bad feelings for me to continue to serve with people who show me no respect.

 

Keep the advice coming!

[MrsSmith]

"But there are just too many bad feelings for me to continue to serve with people who show me no respect"

 

I feel change in the air. As for going quietly, to me it would depend on your purpose behind telling those left behind. Because emails have to be kept short, please try and imagine the look of genuine empathy on my face. Is your purpose

 

to help fix the problem. Why? You're leaving it.

to warn others there are problems. They know.

take others with you. Let your boy tell his friends.

take revenge. Now that's a reason I understand. My parting shots would be in direct proportion to how much I personally had invested in the troop divided by the chance I will need to interact with these people again. Ye Olde Burned Bridges theory.

 

Good Luck.

[scoutingagain]

I guess I'll jump in with my 2 cents.

 

Before I did anything I would want to make sure it was my son's decision. Eagle in KY had a lot of good questions to consider. I would ask my son if he is still having fun? Does he think he will continue to have fun? If he joined another troop with a different approach does he think he could have at least as much fun or more fun than he's having now?

 

Remember, fun with a purpose. Let's not mess up the fun, because we are totally focused the other reasons we want our sons to participate in scouting or because of how we're involved with scouting.

 

In the case of Goodkidsmom, from her description, it made it sound as if her son was not having much fun and was being unfairly limited in his advancement so it seemed to make sense for him to explore other options. The issues were focused on her son's situation in the troop.

 

At this point based on what you've posted so far, I don't see enough indication that your son feels strongly enough about the situation to make a move. However I will also say it is always worth it to stay aware of options. So it is worth while to explore other troops in the area and what kinds of things their doing. Given your involvement in the District I suspect you have a pretty good idea of what the other troops are doing.

 

I guess I can understand your frustration with the troop leadership but my short answer would be that troop membership is primarily for your son. If he is or can be happy where he is and doesn't see how a move could improve things for him, he should stay. If he is not happy and he believes a change in troops would benefit him, he should explore that option, with your help. The fact that you and the current leadership of the troop don't agree on things, should not enter into the decision. You can stay involved in scouting at the District Level or even get involved with another troop if you wish. If your son wants you involved in his troop then he may need to consider making a move, but that's something for him to consider.

 

Let me make it clear, I am not defending the troop leadership. I don't even know the issues. I just think the issue of troop membership should be focused on your son's situation and not how well you get along with the current leadership of the troop.

 

Either way. Best of luck.

 

SA

[Laurie]

SA: I think I got that he's not having fun from the "more yelling and less understanding". Scoutmom, is he having fun? Excellent question. In my son's case, he was not having fun.

 

MrsSmith: Not all disgruntled families are willing to speak up to the SM or adult leadership, at least not in my experience. They may talk to one another, but that's just gossip and not productive. Maybe I should clarify what I mean by leave quietly: don't talk up the move, don't put down the troop, but clearly communicate to those who need to know the reasons why a boy is leaving.

[scoutmom]

No, he's not having fun. And he doesn't like the new leadership any more than I do. And that is his opinion - not influenced by me - well, I tried not to influence him. Without going into too many details, I think the fact that the new leadership in this Troop very publicly (at a District function) embarrased me and showed me a great amount of disrespect caused him to form his own opinion. (He was present at the function.)

 

When I leave, the people who need to know, will know. I don't intend to be talking it up or throwing it around at Troop meetings. My son's friends and their parents will know, if they ask. I am talking right now about when I leave. When and if my son leaves, the SM and CC will know. And any friends he decides to tell. We won't be recruiting, but I'm sure it won't end with us.

 

Laurie, you're right about disgruntled families not speaking up. They don't want to rock the boat, but they're more than happy to moan and complain. If more people were willing to take a stand, this Troop wouldn't be where it is.

 

 

[Eamonn]

As active as I am in Scouting, I am not active in the troop that OJ is in. This is his second troop. When he crossed over the troop he joined was a good one. The Scoutmaster, who OJ knew well from hanging out with me was a real nice guy. A firm level headed fellow, who maybe thought more about the way it should be then he did of the Scouts. But this was the troop that OJ wanted to join. The Cubmaster from the pack, who had been my Assistant Cubmaster was trying to start a new troop and he wasn't happy with OJ for not wanting to join that new troop. In fact he was none too happy with me for not pushing OJ to join.

I didn't get involved because I was busy with the district and the council, but most of all because OJ asked me not to.

Sad to say about two years into his Boy Scouting career, the Scoutmaster started to have problems at home. His wife felt that he was spending too much time with the troop. So he quit Scouting.Things went down hill very quickly. The troop program was replaced with Merit Badge classes. Anyone who sat through the classes was given the merit badge. The Scouts didn't even have the option of which merit badge they wanted to work on. I wasn't happy, but I didn't want to interfere. I did have the Unit Commissioner have a word.

OJ came home one night and said that he didn't feel that he had earned all the merit badges that he had.

I felt really bad. I know that he had heard me going on about how troop 150 was abusing the merit badge program(One ASM was the counselor for 42 or 43 merit badges) It was all well and good for me wearing my district hat to moan and groan. It wasn't OK for me to put down a Scoutmaster in front of a child. That is not teaching respect.

OJ, asked if he could transfer to troop 160. It was his choice. He thought that they had a better outdoor program.

I think Scout Troops should be like restaurants. There should be one on every corner, catering to the needs and tastes of different groups and interests. I think keeping a Lad in a troop in which he isn't happy is not a good idea.

It would be a wonderful world if all the Scoutmasters in the world were trained and following the good words in all the good books. But that isn't the case. Even the better troops have flaws. Leaders have failings. Troop Committees have misinformation and are at times off track. Still all these people are trying. They give up their time. If only for that we as parents owe them something. I think that we owe them respect and ought to go out of our way not to put them down in front of our kids.

OJ, still has friends in his old troop, he still is polite to the adults in the troop and does at times mention the things that they did that impressed him as being good.

So when the time is right it is important not to dwell in a negative past but move on into a positive future. We as adults have to learn to play nice.

Eamonn

[MollieDuke]

I have a similar problem, and we've decided to stay where we are. Since most of these posts are from those that left, I thought I'd put my post here. Our SM also does not like women in scouting, however, he tolerates me (note:tolerate; not embraces me there), because I do know the book and follow it. I try to pay attention to the boys desires and follow those too. Example: there are outings that the boys seem to want "guy time" and women involved in those activities take away from the experience for them, so I stay home. Believe me, they notice that I've taken my cues from them. I've had boys thank me for staying home. It's nothing personal, it's just some boys like that "guy time". Our SM isn't too interested in Boy Led right now even though when we joined this group part of the reason we chose it was that it had a strong boy led ideal. THe SM has changed. He allows others to dictate to him and he bows down to them to avoid conflict. My son says he feels "sold out" to the mouthy adults. My son has lost a great deal of respect for this man. However, we have a lot of other strong contacts in scouting. We attend other events with other groups like OA events and other district events where we see other groups, so my son sees much more than the little "home" troop. I find that good for my son. The biggest reason we stay is that I can see my son learning how to deal with difficult people, how to be empathetic to situations, how to be loyal, and how to pray for his SM and those above and around him. Plus, he wants to stay to try to better things in any way he can. Right now, he's trying to always wear the complete uniform every week, he's working with new scouts and trying to befriend them, and as he says "not to be a leming and just follow suit, but be the best scout he can be." These are skills that you need all your lives. He's advancing, earning his MB's and all that as well. The biggest thing I think he's missing is a strong adult leader he can look up to within his troop. There are several at the OA and district level to fill that bill, but it's a shame he can't get that in his group. One of the biggest reasons as adults we've never thought of leaving is that we see a need here that we might fill. If this changes tomorrow, we're gone. I think it's a day to day thing, but it's just like your job....nothing is perfect and you do have to deal with idiots all your life. In fact, sometimes you are perceived as the idiot. It's reality. While my son gets discouraged sometimes, it's ultimately his choice to stay or go for me. Right now, he's committed to try to make it better by subtly exhibiting other characteristics that are absent just now. We'll see how it goes.

[boleta]

The Troop my son was associated with also went throught hard times. The SM died of a heart attack and a group of older boys were very poorly behaved prior to his joinging. These boys were basically juvenile delinquents that liked to camp. After my son joined and a few years went by, I asked the SM who had taken over in this very difficult situation, why he did so, and why his son stayed in this troop. He told me that he felt a responsibility to the Troop and that he felt he could work with the adults to make the progrm better. And he did! The delinquents left, the program improved and everyone was much happier with the troop. I think it is worth noting that it is an all volunteer organization and the quality is variable.

[scoutmom]

I appreciate everyone's input. I have talked with my son and at this point, it's still an open conversation. He doesn't want to make any decisions until after Summer camp (last week in July).

 

For myself, it helped me to be reminded that this is supposed to be fun. And right now, I'm not having fun. So I will be resigning my position on the Troop Committee at the next Committee meeting. This means I will be doing some serious re-writing on my Wood Badge ticket, but that's OK. I have a ton of support in the District, so I know it won't be a big problem. I guess I had better contact my ticket counselor.....

 

And I'll trust my son to know for himself when it's time to move on ... or not.