Why no "trained" shoulder emblem for NAYLE ?

[mrkstvns]

Scouts typically wear a "Trained" emblem on their shoulder if they completed ILST....

...or a "NYLT" emblem if they completed more advanced leadership training....

...but why isn't there a similar "NAYLE" emblem for the scouts who complete BSA's highest level youth leadership training?

[Eagle94-A1]

Not enough demand for it. I remember reading that there has to be X number of people eligible for it for them to produce it, excepting high level recognition like Silver Antelope. I am assuming there is a cool NAYLE temp patch. The previous course did. 

[mrkstvns]

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Not enough demand for it. I remember reading that there has to be X number of people eligible for it for them to produce it, excepting high level recognition like Silver Antelope. I am assuming there is a cool NAYLE temp patch. The previous course did. 

I don't buy that argument.

The high adventure bases already have  pocket patches for NAYLE attendees, so what on earth would be the least little bit hard about having a small shoulder emblem too. They don't even have to sell it via the national scout shop....they could just stock it at the sites that offer NAYLE training.

The pocket patch isn't really as useful as the shoulder emblem because it's then a "temporary" patch, vying for space with summer camp patches, high adventure base patches, and lots of award emblems like Nova awards, National Outdoor award patches, etc.

Besides, a pocket patch for NAYLE is inconsistent with the way training is indicated for ILST and NYLT.  Consistency is good and increases the visibility of leadership progression.

Still looking for a GOOD reason for not having a NAYLE emblem....

[qwazse]

I don't think any of us here designed the program, so you won't find a satisfying reason here.

I suspect someone asked a focus group of youth what they'd like in terms of insignia, and they thought the temporary patch was good enough.

If they had a NAYLE shoulder patch, then they'd have to swap it in. It's such a hassle tearing off those little patches just to put on new ones.

This isn't GS/USA. You're not supposed to plaster yourself in patches for every scouting experience that you have. Pick your favorite for the field uniform, save the rest for a brag vest. I actually had a venturer told me that's why she liked the program.

[mrkstvns]

1 minute ago, qwazse said:

This isn't GS/USA. You're not supposed to plaster yourself in patches for every scouting experience that you have. Pick your favorite for the field uniform, save the rest for a brag vest. I actually had a venturer told me that's why she liked the program.

That's precisely why the shoulder emblem makes sense.  

NAYLE represents the highest level of leadership training a youth can reach, so the "normal" position on the sleeve is where it should be indicated --- not a "temporary" place that is unlikely to be used by most youth.

[Eagle94-A1]

44 minutes ago, mrkstvns said:

I don't buy that argument.

The high adventure bases already have  pocket patches for NAYLE attendees, so what on earth would be the least little bit hard about having a small shoulder emblem too. They don't even have to sell it via the national scout shop....they could just stock it at the sites that offer NAYLE training.

The pocket patch isn't really as useful as the shoulder emblem because it's then a "temporary" patch, vying for space with summer camp patches, high adventure base patches, and lots of award emblems like Nova awards, National Outdoor award patches, etc.

Besides, a pocket patch for NAYLE is inconsistent with the way training is indicated for ILST and NYLT.  Consistency is good and increases the visibility of leadership progression.

Still looking for a GOOD reason for not having a NAYLE emblem....

The folks who went to NJLIC, NAYLE's predecessor course,  that I encountered were mighty proud of those patches. And uy my argument or not, BSA has a policy of only creating new patches if demand for them is over a certain number. Heck when I ordered Sea Scout stuff a few years back, I think it was 2015, the stuff still had "Sea Exploring" tags on it. and Sea Exploring died July 31, 1998. So 17 years later they still were getting rid of inventory.

[qwazse]

7 hours ago, mrkstvns said:

That's precisely why the shoulder emblem makes sense.  

NAYLE represents the highest level of leadership training a youth can reach, so the "normal" position on the sleeve is where it should be indicated --- not a "temporary" place that is unlikely to be used by most youth.

The trained patch is intended to acknowledge that the scout/scouter is trained for his/her position (e.g. IOLS for SM/ASMs, ILST for PL/SPL, ILSC for crew officers), a few years ago NYLT was given it's own strip to acknowledge that a youth is trained to deliver the scouting program to his/her unit. It's actually kind of wimpy compared to the old JLT patch. Training is not a rank, either you have it, or you don't. Change position, remove your trained strip until you complete training for your new position. http://www.scoutinsignia.com/trained.htm

NAYLE is not the highest, just a highly unique level. A youth can also participate in Kodiak, Powderhorn, WFA, and LNT. (https://www.scouting.org/programs/venturing/training/advanced-youth-training/). The norm with advanced leadership training is to not wear it on one's sleeve. For those recognitions, we have the right pocket, the backs of MB sashes, and brag vests -- or we have special neckerchiefs, beads and woggles.

[mrkstvns]

11 hours ago, qwazse said:

. Change position, remove your trained strip until you complete training for your new position. http://www.scoutinsignia.com/trained.htm

Yes, that's what makes the most sense....but I've seen many scouts who show up for ILST when they become Patrol Leader for the first time, then always manage to have "conflicts" when subsequent ILST is conducted....despite their having accepted new positions of responsibility. Every ILST will be a little different because you have different boys involved in the activities, you'll hear different observations during the reflection moments, etc., etc.  Aside from any nitpicking about whether they should remove the trained strip, a youth can definitely grow his leadership skills by continuously revisiting topics and looking at things from a new perspective.

[mashmaster]

4 hours ago, mrkstvns said:

Yes, that's what makes the most sense....but I've seen many scouts who show up for ILST when they become Patrol Leader for the first time, then always manage to have "conflicts" when subsequent ILST is conducted....despite their having accepted new positions of responsibility. Every ILST will be a little different because you have different boys involved in the activities, you'll hear different observations during the reflection moments, etc., etc.  Aside from any nitpicking about whether they should remove the trained strip, a youth can definitely grow his leadership skills by continuously revisiting topics and looking at things from a new perspective.

But dear lord after 3x through ILST, they are so sick of it.  we have had scouts refuse to take leadership roles because they didn't want to take ILST again.  once that is removed, many of them are the best leaders we have ever had.  Having them sit through classes like this over and over again is a great way to push kids out of scouting.  They want to scout and have fun and they will lead.  They go to school for a significant amount of time and they want scouting to be different from school.

[mrkstvns]

2 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

But dear lord after 3x through ILST, they are so sick of it.  we have had scouts refuse to take leadership roles because they didn't want to take ILST again.  once that is removed, many of them are the best leaders we have ever had.  Having them sit through classes like this over and over again is a great way to push kids out of scouting.  They want to scout and have fun and they will lead.  They go to school for a significant amount of time and they want scouting to be different from school.

Quite right.  

While I think scouts (and adults) would benefit from all the exposure to leadership ideas they can get, they should not really be pushed into it, and dry classwork might well be counterproductive. 

In an ideal world, we'd just toss around nuggets of leadership wisdom while out on a lake fishing for trout, or hiking a 10-mile trail through wooded hills...

 

[Eagledad]

15 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

But dear lord after 3x through ILST, they are so sick of it.  we have had scouts refuse to take leadership roles because they didn't want to take ILST again.  once that is removed, many of them are the best leaders we have ever had.  Having them sit through classes like this over and over again is a great way to push kids out of scouting.  They want to scout and have fun and they will lead.  They go to school for a significant amount of time and they want scouting to be different from school.

Yes, we got rid of the course and changed to as minimal training as we could. 

We found that leadership development courses should only be used to give enough basic tools for surviving the first month in office, or to fix a specific problem. We went from doing annual troop training weekends to a one hour course after each SPL election. 

Ironically, when we were doing the the troop weekend training course, a couple of troops asked if they could send a few of their scouts. Even though stopped running the course because we determined it was way too much effort for knowledge gained, those other troops who participated in our course took the syllabus and started running their own course. For them, it was a fun weekend and gave their older scouts something to do.

Barry