Interesting observation - rank advancement

[willray]

11 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

No and no. 

The advancement short cut that was being attempted was rejected by National. 

Thank you for the clarification - that's heartening to hear ( and everyone says National can't get anything right! 🙂 )

It gives me some hope that the girls in my council who magically were "First Class" in February, would also be asked to actually earn the ranks as written if someone pushed the issue.  And it makes me a little more comfortable in my admonition to our girls that they should not be too envious of others who have deprived themselves of the real benefits and opportunities of the rank advancement system.

[Eagle94-A1]

8 hours ago, Navybone said:

Unless you are personally aware of  personally involved with, or have documentation of, shortcuts taken by individual you mention, is is not fact. It is supposition on your part.   

These pictures of Sidney Ireland in a Scouts BSA uniform at the State of the Union Address on February 5, 2019 which was 4 days after girls were allowed in. Note teh Life Rank.

[scoutldr]

Is that a Wood Badge woggle?

[Navybone]

Eagle, thanks -  had not seen the picture or any of the context with them.  than clears up quite a bit of the issue.  Some quick research on this site and the magic of google shows she this has already been a source of considerable debate.  However, going back to the original post, the actions of one (Ms. Ireland), should not impugn the work of other young women working toward Eagle.  

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Navybone

[Eagle94-A1]

24 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

Is that a Wood Badge woggle?

Upon closer look, I think it is.

 

Sidney Ireland is the most prominent, but I am willing to bet there  are others who are taking short cuts and what not. sad thing is that there are girls who are busting butt and are doing it by the book, but because of a few we are questioning them as well.

 

Sadly this is not a girl only phenomenon. I see it with boys too. Heck one Eagle Scout I met got it after appealing to both the Council, and National. National finally gave it to him because "you do not penalize the Scout for the mistakes of the adults." Entire district advancement committee resigned in protest.

 

 

[Treflienne]

54 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

Is that a Wood Badge woggle?

I've got a scout who would like to talk her troop-mates into making turks-head woggles (and custom square larger neckechiefs) once they have a chance to get around to the issue of neckerchiefs.   Are there some restrictions on what is allowed for scouts?   (Like no leather or brown-leather-look-paracord?)

[malraux]

4 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

I've got a scout who would like to talk her troop-mates into making turks-head woggles (and custom square larger neckechiefs) once they have a chance to get around to the issue of neckerchiefs.   Are there some restrictions on what is allowed for scouts?   (Like no leather or brown-leather-look-paracord?)

Woggles in general are fine, but the stiff 2 strand, 4 lobed leather woggle (item 2173) is restricted to wood badge participants only to be worn with the wb necker. It’s distinctive in appearance and a violation of the insignia guide. 

[Treflienne]

3 hours ago, malraux said:

Woggles in general are fine, but the stiff 2 strand, 4 lobed leather woggle (item 2173) is restricted to wood badge participants only to be worn with the wb necker. It’s distinctive in appearance and a violation of the insignia guide. 

So that is a 3-lead 4-bight turk's head in leather (with each strand doubled). https://www.scoutshop.org/wood-badge-woggle-neckerchief-slide-2173.html

But would a different turk's head knot (say 4-lead 5-bight ) be okay for scouts?  in leather? in paracord?  only if it is a color that looks very different from brown leather?

[ParkMan]

16 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

So that is a 3-lead 4-bight turk's head in leather (with each strand doubled). https://www.scoutshop.org/wood-badge-woggle-neckerchief-slide-2173.html

But would a different turk's head knot (say 4-lead 5-bight ) be okay for scouts?  in leather? in paracord?  only if it is a color that looks very different from brown leather?

RIght - it's this specific Woggle that is restricted. 

Any other kind of Woggle is perfectly fine.

[willray]

14 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

So that is a 3-lead 4-bight turk's head in leather (with each strand doubled). https://www.scoutshop.org/wood-badge-woggle-neckerchief-slide-2173.html

But would a different turk's head knot (say 4-lead 5-bight ) be okay for scouts?  in leather? in paracord?  only if it is a color that looks very different from brown leather?

The guide to awards and insignia says only that "handicraft" slides made by youth, may be worn instead of official slides.  The restriction on the woodbadge slide is a restriction on the woodbadge slide, and there nowhere appears any restriction on "things kinda like" woodbadge slides.

So yes, a different turk's head would be find.  Even a 3-lead 4-bight turks head, made by a scout out of similar-looking materials, would probably be fine.  Wearing an official WB woggle would not be fine.

[Double Eagle]

I've scouting in other countries and even picked up a few turk's head woggles made of different material, from yute to leather.  My two cents is the WB woggle should only be worn with the WB neckerchief.  If any youth can make a turk's head, go scout!  I've seen many with paracord of colors to signify patrols too.  I believe the initial WB woggle leather is related to the tread powered sewing machine cord, about the same stuff. 

I did have to come the rescue of one new adult that made a woggle while at summer camp.  She was so proud until some WB'er told her she couldn't wear any woggle.  We had an interesting discussion with this WB'er. 

Like so many other scouts, I think this scout saw a cool item like a woggle and got one too.  We've seen this throughout scouting where the scouts emulate what scouters do.  Hiking staffs, camping gear, uniform items, and menus come to mind.   

[mashmaster]

A woggle is a woggle.  Part of the attitude of those adults that you had to deal with is part of what I have issue with woodbadge.  Some people make such a big deal about Wood Badge that people that take the course are better scouters than others.  Wood Badge is a good course, I know many people that have taken wood badge that take every short cut possible, and I know people that didn't that do more for scouting that is above and beyond what is expected.  IMHO, the course has nothing to do about ones character and work ethic, it may just enhance the ethic on the good and bad side.

I have recently stopped wearing my WB necker because of this attitude.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, Double Eagle said:

Like so many other scouts, I think this scout saw a cool item like a woggle and got one too.  We've seen this throughout scouting where the scouts emulate what scouters do.  Hiking staffs, camping gear, uniform items, and menus come to mind.   

A one legged Scouter at our Council Scout Show had a wooden leg loaded with unit brands, countless signatures, and many clever quotes burned in the wood. Pretty cool really, but I often wondered if that leg led to scouts getting patrol and troop tattoos. 

Barry

Side note: My oldest son once mentioned  an interest in a tattoo. I told him it was his decision, but it better say "Mother" if he hoped to ever eat dinner at our house again. Still no tattoo 15 years later.

[Cburkhardt]

The girl and her parents pressing a public relations campaign for "immediate" Eagle Scout recognition are trying to pressure the BSA into retroactively recognizing activities apparently engaged in during years prior to the official admission of females into Scouting.  This is most inappropriate, in that such a practice would result in a rush of others desiring retroactive application of activities and events prior to their admission into Scouting.  To allow this would invite litigation over the matter as others come forward to force claims of apparent retroactive activities as satisfying advancement claims.  Retroactive recognition of activities in advancement has long been prohibited in Scouting and should not be allowed in this case.  To do so would violate the across-the-board opportunity being offered and invite sham evaluations of retroactive activity.  This is absolutely, not going to happen.  The pursuit of this and the act of wearing a Life Scout badge confuses the efforts of youth who are working within the opportunity extended -- which this young woman can do if she chooses.  

[HelpfulTracks]

19 hours ago, ParkMan said:

RIght - it's this specific Woggle that is restricted. 

Any other kind of Woggle is perfectly fine.

I am not a fan of Ms. Ireland's tactics or rhetoric, but to be fair to her, I remember reading that is some type of  Wood Badge part 1 in Canada which she was eligible and has participated,  thus eligible to wear the WB woggle. I do not recall all the details but that portion of Wood Badge is open to youth and the Woogle signifies completion.