Interesting observation - rank advancement

[malraux]

7 hours ago, willray said:

The Boys just don't do this - they press advantages and if anything we're usually hoping that maybe they won't go quite so far rubbing it in

Win all you can!

[willray]

On 5/10/2019 at 11:45 AM, willray said:

So... Who else wants to show off what their cross-over patrol(s) do for cooking, with no senior scouts or adult help, on their first campout, and first time cooking outdoors?

I guess I'll keep playing - Here's desert, from the same weekend from one of our Boys' Troop patrols - Nobody in the patrol with less than a year in the troop, most 2 or 3 years, most 2nd-class, PL pushing star.

They consider this to be their best effort with a dutch oven to-date, and a great success for the meal.

It really did taste better than it looks.

(ah, and the greenish cast is not their fault - that's mood-lighting courtesy of the green dining fly)

Edited May 11, 2019 by willray

[Cburkhardt]

As a Scoutmaster of a larger, best practices Troop for girls in a council that now has over 40 girl troops, I cannot agree with much that has been written in this posting.  There are no known instances of easy rank sign-off for girls in our council — and I would know.  There are the expected instances of rapid advancement of a few older girls who are on the edge to earn Eagle in 2 years, and that is to be expected for many of the reasons stated here and on the other posting on hints for new youth trying to earn Eagle in short time periods.

As in the earlier camporee posting, there is a tendency for some to take isolated instances and generalize them into a broad conclusion When there is no evidence of an actual trend.  There is, absolutely, no evidence of a trend rank inflation or camporee fixing favoring girls. Making broadside and unsupported allegations based on one or two unsubstantiated or unexplained circumstances is inaccurate and plain wrong.  And, those instances might be absolutely fine if we had the details.

There are complacent scoutmasters and SPLs out there happy with smallish and not-so-well-run Troops that have been used to griping and explaining-away the successes of well-run boy Troops for years.  Now they have an assortment of some pretty sharp girl troops and girl members coming on line to think about.  Complaining like this did not happen at our district camporee 2 weeks ago.  Our girls were truly welcomed and treated just like the established troops when they competed.  When they won one of the events that weekend, there was no sour grape in the crowd.  They earned it fair and square.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, Cburkhardt said:

When there is no evidence of an actual trend.  There is, absolutely, no evidence of a trend rank inflation ....

My comments are not directed at the girls only, but ALL Scouts.

IMHO there is indeed a trend of "rank inflation," or more specifically a lowering of advancement standards by  national that has lead to "rank inflation." The standard for advancement use to be "Master the Skills" as stated in BSHBs prior to the 12th edition in 2009. But even before 2009, I was seeing a lot of "one and done" in regards to advancement. Even with the removal of "Master the Skills" from the BSHB, the Guide to Advancement stated until approximately 2015, "The badge represents what a Scout CAN DO, (sic) not what he has done." 

Now "Master the Skills" is not in there. And the Guide to Advancement states, "Advancement, thus, is not so much a reward for what has been done. It is, instead, more about the journey: As a Scout advances, the Scout is measured, grows in confidence and self-reliance, and builds upon skills and abilities learned. The badge signifies that a young person—through participation in a series of educational activities—has provided service to others, practiced personal responsibility, and set the examples critical to the development of leadership; all the while working to live by the Scout Oath and Scout Law." 

[MattR]

I'd rather see pictures of mangled pineapple upside down cake. Of course, chocolate will also work. 

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

I'd rather see pictures of mangled pineapple upside down cake. Of course, chocolate will also work. 

Chocolate? CHOCOLATE! WE WANT CHOCOLATE!

 

[walk in the woods]

11 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

As in the earlier camporee posting, there is a tendency for some to take isolated instances and generalize them into a broad conclusion When there is no evidence of an actual trend.  There is, absolutely, no evidence of a trend rank inflation or camporee fixing favoring girls. Making broadside and unsupported allegations based on one or two unsubstantiated or unexplained circumstances is inaccurate and plain wrong.  

You're making the same generalization error based on your experience, just in the opposite direction.   Unless you've sampled a statistically significant portion of the entire scouting nation to back your claim that is.

[Pale Horse]

16 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

You're making the same generalization error based on your experience, just in the opposite direction.   Unless you've sampled a statistically significant portion of the entire scouting nation to back your claim that is.

It may or may not be sufficient or empirical evidence, but he does have the Scout Law to fall back on, and the whole "Scout is Trustworthy" argument. I'd say the onus of the argument is on whomever is asserting there are shenanigans afoot to provide evidence to the fact, as opposed to someone saying everything (for the most part) is above board.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Pale Horse

[walk in the woods]

3 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

It may or may not be sufficient or empirical evidence, but he does have the Scout Law to fall back on, and the whole "Scout is Trustworthy" argument. I'd say the onus of the argument is on whomever is asserting there are shenanigans afoot to provide evidence to the fact, as opposed to someone saying everything (for the most part) is above board.

Well if we're falling back on a scout is trustworthy do we not owe the same benefit to those scouters reporting shenanigans? 

[Onslow]

I've seen my fair share of shenanigans.  My own son was awarded a 50 miler award when he only completed 1 hour of service work instead of 10.  I've been pressured to sign off on on awards and have refused.  I witnessed an adult leader be awarded a 5 year veteran award who had only been a leader for 38 months at the last district banquet.  This stuff unfortunately happens all the time.  Good ole boy nepotism ......

There was also a point in time in my early scouting career I did not have a complete handle on all the processes, such as  differentiating in any meaningful the difference between discuss and demonstrate.  I later learned the my errors and made necessary corrections.  Some "shenanigans" are mistakes due to inexperience , and some are boorish purposeful fudging, while other incidents may be just plain laziness.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Onslow

[skeptic]

Sour grapes never make good wine.

[Pale Horse]

1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

Well if we're falling back on a scout is trustworthy do we not owe the same benefit to those scouters reporting shenanigans? 

The people "reporting" shenanigans on here have nothing to base those accusations on other than a girl achieved First Class in 90 days.  The bar for "reporting" seems pretty low.

[walk in the woods]

3 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

The people "reporting" shenanigans on here have nothing to base those accusations on other than a girl achieved First Class in 90 days.  The bar for "reporting" seems pretty low.

If you look at my first post I quoted a reference to the earlier camporee thread.  The thread was expanded by others, I just commented on the logic.

[mashmaster]

Everyone needs to stop and think about what they are saying, would you say all this around the campfire?  We are all scouters that give our time and have the best intentions.  We all will scout in our own way and do our best, for the kids.  I don't think I have seen people saying things incorrectly, we just all see things from different perspectives.

A scout is kind.

[Eagledad]

I've been on this forum for 20 something years and the subject of advancement has been discussed a 1000 times. In every discussion, the traditionalist consistently expressed that each scout's advancement journey is the scouts choices and responsibility. 

Barry

Edited May 13, 2019 by Eagledad