Interesting observation - rank advancement

[Thunderbird]

@bsaggcmom  I agree with you except I would add this point to merit badges:
 

Quote

"All merit badge requirements must be met while a registered Scout in Scouts BSA, or a qualified Venturer or Sea Scout. Accomplishments before joining, or while a Cub Scout, do not apply."  (GTA section 7.0.0.1)

And the Guide to Advancement defines a "qualified" Venturer or Sea Scout as one who has previously earned First Class rank while registered in the Boy Scout / Scouts BSA program (GTA sections 4.3.1.4 and 4.4.0.1).

[Hawkwin]

17 hours ago, Thunderbird said:

It is relevant because it was work that she did prior to joining a Scouts BSA troop. 

No, two different issues and policies are being conflated here.

 

The rules that allow for work done in a foreign scouting organization to be considered existed before the creation of the Temporary Transition Rules and are found in the GTA (https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf), 5.0.4.0, page 38.

The Temporary Transition rules (https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/02/Implementation-Details-for-Scouts-BSA.pdf) apply to the extension allowed to scouts that join now who are over 16 but under 18.

 

To summarize the two different issues:

1. Can a US citizen, who was likely domiciled in the US at the time, complete work in a foreign scouting organization and then have the work considered and credited after they join BSA. To answer that question, we turn to the GTA - but it does not answer it directly. It is my contention that this was simply an oversight and that such a situation just was not considered previously due to just how rare it would be. If it was considered, then I think it would be fair to assume that the GTA would explicitly state such - just like it explicitly states that Eagle may not be awarded via this method. I base my opinion on the idea that it would serve none of the AIMS of scouting to allow a foreign citizen to gain consideration for credit, including Merit Badges, up to but no including Eagle, for the work they did but deny that same credit for the same work to a US citizen. It seems strange to me that we would have a policy biased against US citizens based on their domicile.

[Edit: And it would appear that her Council agreed with such and credited her for prior work completed.]

2. Should scouts that have prior work credited be allowed to obtain Eagle prior to the established deadline in the Temporary Transition Rules (TTR). As the document states, it takes roughly 20 months to complete the work to obtain Eagle. Absent any prior work being recognized, no new scout should be able to get it any quicker, male or female. The TTR specifically states that the first class of female Eagles will be recognized in the Fall of 2020. It creates no such restriction on males that join BSA in 2019. In general, I fully support the transition rules. In general, I don't support the idea that even if a council recognizes and credits work done in a foreign scouting organization, that one could obtain Eagle in just six months. But, if a council recognizes work performed in a foreign scouting organization for a male that joined BSA in 2019 for the first time, there is no restriction in the TTR on that individual obtaining Eagle this year. As such, the TTR does have the potential for disparate impact with this rule. From where I am sitting, my recommendation would be to quit the fight for early Eagle on her part - but I am in no way going to fault her or think less of her for her attempt to do what she thinks is right or fair. I am not in her shoes, I can't possible empathize with her plight, and it would be extremely judgmental for me (or anyone else), to think less of her for doing so.

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Hawkwin

[John-in-KC]

Closed while the moderators discuss. 

[RememberSchiff]

We moderators are still discussing this locked topic... in a scoutlike way. 

Meanwhile, a local council named their annual Distinguished Citizen, attorney Thomas Rath.

Noting the Scout motto’s attention to good citizenship and moral character, Rath said the country as a whole needs to pay attention. We are, he said, in a dark place, where civil discourse has been replaced by discord.

...we know better and can do better in terms of conducting ourselves ...

That can start at the next town meeting, or the next school board meeting, he said.

He cited both Republican and Democrat lawmakers in New Hampshire who have been able to disagree without being disagreeable and have being able to work together as a result.

Inspiring words, those, and very much needed.

Congratulations to Rath and to the Daniel Webster Council for continuing to prepare Scouts “to do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.”

 https://www.unionleader.com/opinion/editorials/we-know-better-inspiring-words-at-boy-scout-event/article_a85cb44e-35a0-5a48-902e-234cfc1338a8.html

RS

Edited June 30, 2019 by RememberSchiff

[RememberSchiff]

This topic is now reopened. Ms. Ireland is now over 18, an adult. 

OP: @Jameson76   CR: @mrkstvns

@desertrat77  @MattR @NJCubScouter  @John-in-KC

Edited October 17, 2019 by RememberSchiff

[Eagledad]

I believe the BSA could help their financial situation by allowing adults to buy their Eagle. But, girls have to earn first class.😎

Barry

[RememberSchiff]

40 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I believe the BSA could help their financial situation by allowing adults to buy their Eagle. But, girls have to earn first class.😎

Barry

Yeah, maybe  instead of red,white,blue ribbon -  green and gold ribbon, like James  E. West  Fellowship Award knot  ($1000).    <--- satire 

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by RememberSchiff

[John-in-KC]

I’m in my 60s, had 14 MB as I recall, and I know I’m a “Life for life “...aka, I was a Boy Scout. 
I have no need to “validate” my life by buying an Eagle.  I have far more than one defining moment in my lifetime. 

[prof]

This was in my news fed this morning

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2019/10/15/girls-boy-scouts-eagle-scout/

Edited October 17, 2019 by prof

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

This topic is now reopened. Ms. Ireland is now over 18, an adult.  ...

Happy Birthday!

[qwazse]

Given that the best scout I ever knew aged out at 2nd class, I will say, that I cared ...

Quote

“The highest I could get in Girl Scouts was in first class because that’s all I had and as soon as I left high school nobody cared. ...” Judi Polson of Now New York City said.

First class scouts are the best!

[Eagle94-A1]

That's because the GSUSA does not track their advancement like the BSA does. They even admit that.

 

[Treflienne]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

  Quote

“The highest I could get in Girl Scouts was in first class because that’s all I had and as soon as I left high school nobody cared. ...” Judi Polson of Now New York City said.

That's because BSA was an innovator back around 1911, and added extra badges (Life Scout, Star Scout, Eagle Scout) that were innovations not in Baden-Powell's Scouting for Boys.    The GSUSA did not add these extras.     Not sure when "First Class" when from being a "rank" to being an "award" in GSUSA.  But  by the time I was the appropriate age, it was the highest award in GSUSA.    It was definitely annoying how little those boy scouts at the time were aware of the girl scout program -- I definitely got reaction from boy scouts  "You've ONLY reached first class?".    Of course,  changing the name of the highest award to "Gold Award" didn't actually help when it came to recognition value.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Treflienne
Added "those" Too easy to misread as "little boy scouts"

[qwazse]

20 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

... Of course,  changing the name of the highest award to "Gold Award" didn't actually help when it came to recognition value.

You know what would change recognition value? NESA recognizing girls who earned Gold Award. But, then again, they wouldn't recognize venturers who earned BSA's highest award for them ... and that one has an Eagle on it!

Edited October 17, 2019 by qwazse

[prof]

Seems like the National Organization for Women is giving a board of review to someone who doesn't want to wait the prescribed amount of time, which is a requirement (which NOW and the scout, I guess, didn't understand or think should apply).

Scouts BSA is saying wait until October 2020. I hope that they hold the line on this one.