Interesting observation - rank advancement

[NJCubScouter]

On 6/22/2019 at 7:35 PM, jr56 said:

I remember reading in the advancement policy, that if a scout comes from another country, individual requirements can be reviewed and counted toward applicability to American requirements, but an Eagle rank would not be awarded.

That is exactly what it says.  The highest rank that a Scout can be awarded based on advancement work done is another country's Scouting program is Life, even if they have earned the other country's highest award.  I imagine that someone at National has a chart indicating what rank from what country is equivalent to what rank here.  I'm guessing that the highest award in Canada or the UK would get you Life.  It is possible that there are some countries where the Scouting program is different enough from ours that a youth earning their highest award would get a BSA rank lower than Life.

[Eagle94-A1]

4 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Do you really think BSA set out to tell a US citizen that they are prohibited from some tools of advancement that we offer to Canadians?

This phrase in the G2A says it all: "Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here,.... "

Considering she was born and bred in NYC, she doesn't qualify.

2 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

That is exactly what it says.  The highest rank that a Scout can be awarded based on advancement work done is another country's Scouting program is Life, even if they have earned the other country's highest award.  I imagine that someone at National has a chart indicating what rank from what country is equivalent to what rank here.  I'm guessing that the highest award in Canada or the UK would get you Life.  It is possible that there are some countries where the Scouting program is different enough from ours that a youth earning their highest award would get a BSA rank lower than Life.

Actually the local council determines what rank you get, and apparently if teh G2A applies or not.

[Hawkwin]

16 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

This phrase in the G2A says it all: "Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here,.... "

Considering she was born and bred in NYC, she doesn't qualify.

So to confirm, it is your belief that the authors of the GTA intentionally set out to create a policy of advancement that was only available to non-citizens?

Do you think a US citizen that lived abroad temporarily and joined a foreign scouting association should be allowed to have that work considered when they moved back home?

[willray]

6 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

So to confirm, it is your belief that the authors of the GTA intentionally set out to create a policy of advancement that was only available to non-citizens?

Do you think a US citizen that lived abroad temporarily and joined a foreign scouting association should be allowed to have that work considered when they moved back home?

Absolutely.

The path for advancement for citizens is, and was always, defined.  The path for citizens enrolled in BSA to have work conducted while abroad counted towards advancement is and was also defined.

Miss Ireland has followed none of these.

[ParkMan]

10 minutes ago, willray said:

Absolutely.

The path for advancement for citizens is, and was always, defined.  The path for citizens enrolled in BSA to have work conducted while abroad counted towards advancement is and was also defined.

Miss Ireland has followed none of these.

Huh? 

You agreed that an American citizen abroad should be able to get Scouting credit.  I think that's exactly what she did.

Am I missing something here?

[willray]

13 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Huh? 

You agreed that an American citizen abroad should be able to get Scouting credit.  I think that's exactly what she did.

Am I missing something here?

I hate to be rude, but apparently what you are missing is reading the rules for advancement.

The rules define the process crediting foreign advancement work to an American citizen abroad, who is enrolled as a member of a BSA troop.

Miss Ireland was not enrolled as a member of a BSA troop.

[ParkMan]

6 minutes ago, willray said:

I hate to be rude, but apparently what you are missing is reading the rules for advancement.

The rules define the process crediting foreign advancement work to an American citizen abroad, who is enrolled as a member of a BSA troop.

Miss Ireland was not enrolled as a member of a BSA troop.

Sorry - I misunderstood.

So you're saying she should have joined a BSA troop, gone abroad, and then worked on advancement in her BSA troop that way. 

Somehow I think she would have preferred that too.

[willray]

16 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Sorry - I misunderstood.

So you're saying she should have joined a BSA troop, gone abroad, and then worked on advancement in her BSA troop that way. 

Somehow I think she would have preferred that too.

Yes, I am saying that the BSA did not permit US citizen girls to work abroad towards advancement in BSA troops, until they permitted said girls to work towards advancement in domestic BSA troops.

it seems crystal clear that National meant exactly what they said in the guide to advancement:

US members of US troops could work towards BSA advancement in foreign units.

Foreign scouts in the US could credit work in their home organization to BSA advancement in US troops.

There is no language suggesting that US citizen non-members of US troops could claim advancement credit in US troops through membership and work in a foreign unit.

This is no different than the lack of language suggesting that girls who earned rank advancement in the Girl Scouts could apply it to BSA advancement, and the lack of language suggesting that sea-scout Quartermasters should also receive Eagle.  They didn’t omit it because they didn’t think of it, they omitted it because it wasn’t an intended path to the rank. 

Edited June 25, 2019 by willray

[Hawkwin]

49 minutes ago, willray said:

The path for advancement for citizens is, and was always, defined.  The path for citizens enrolled in BSA to have work conducted while abroad counted towards advancement is and was also defined.

The only way to accept that rationale is to believe that the authors of that section intentionally wanted to provide foreign citizens of foreign scouting troops more avenues for advancement in BSA than US citizens of foreign scout troops. I don't think that was their intent and I think the wording of this section was simply an oversight. The fact that they allow for someone living abroad this option clearly eludes to the intent to recognize advancement for US citizens in foreign scouting organizations. Where someone is domiciled at the time of membership seems a trivial technicality and an oversight.

You have to ask yourself, what AIMS does it serve to have such a restriction on US citizens? A Canadian female scout from Canadian scout troop could move here, join BSA and have her prior work credited but we would deny Miss Ireland that same consideration for the exact same prior work, simply because she was not living in Canada at the time?

I would not be surprised to see some future errata on this topic that clarifies - not that it is really that common of an issue.

[willray]

And just in case this gets lost in the discussion - please don’t misunderstand me as having anything against BSA permitting girls into the organization.  If you read back a bit, I have a girls’ troop of my own, of whom I am immensely proud.

I think Miss Ireland is doing a huge disservice to the girls who are actually, in a scoutlike manner, being obedient to the rules.  She had made this about HER, which is the antithesis of scoutlike behavior.  Above and beyond the bending of the rules, the biggest reason she should not be permitted to be “the first female eagle”, is precisely because she so vocally wants to be.

[Hawkwin]

 

2 minutes ago, willray said:

the biggest reason she should not be permitted to be “the first female eagle”, is precisely because she so vocally wants to be.

 The biggest reason to deny is based on the applicant being too vocal? I know you have your own female troop but man, that reads like saying she "doesn't know her place" or that she should "sit down, be quiet." I really don't think you intended it that way but to suggest BSA make a decision based on how vocal someone is smacks of an arbitrary decision.

[qwazse]

First, her dad is making this about him. I haven't read a recent statement from Mrs. Ireland.

I agree with @willray in that it doesn't matter how badly the wheel (or it's parent) squeaks if the tire is flat.

@Hawkwin, we have discussed this before. You have created a false dichotomy. Prior to Feb 1, 2019 BSA permitted young men from foreign WOSM organizations to start rank advancement at a level commensurate with their skills. However, if that scout had joined his WOSM troop just a month before coming to the US, he could only at most be accorded Tenderfoot.  After Feb 1, BSA would also permit a young women from her foreign WOSM organization to start advancement based on the work done in her own country since Feb 1.

If BSA is insisting that retroactive advancement does not apply to girls. It does not apply to them if the scout is a citizen from another country who recently arrived in the USA, and it certainly does not apply to a young woman from the USA who joined a another WOSM organization to advance in their ranks.

It's just not a loophole if BSA says the clock starts on a particular date for a particular group of scouts.

 

[an_old_DC]

Sydney is trying to make this all about her...as opposed to helping all girls. Check out both her twitter and change.org petition. Make no mistake: she wants to be the first girl Eagle Scout and she wants it now. 

As her dad often says, paraphrased, being an Eagle Scout opens lots of doors so you can get into better colleges and get a good job

Edited June 25, 2019 by an_old_DC

[Eagledad]

13 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

 

 The biggest reason to deny is based on the applicant being too vocal? I know you have your own female troop but man, that reads like saying she "doesn't know her place" or that she should "sit down, be quiet." I really don't think you intended it that way but to suggest BSA make a decision based on how vocal someone is smacks of an arbitrary decision.

Shesh, even you admit that your context of his words is out of context of his intended opinion. So, are you suggesting he should re-post his words differently so you don't (can't) take him out of context? Is agreeing to disagree agreeably really so hard? 

Barry

[ParkMan]

I have a similar reaction to @Hawkwin here.  I struggle with the notion that we are upset with this youth because she is advocating for herself.  There is a legitimate question here - how much credit can this youth get for similar Scouting activities elsewhere?  You can disagree with her request, but I don't see why many are so upset with here for pushing the question.