Tenting: 2 years apart

[John-in-KC]

As far as age of Scouts are concerned, use mature judgment and common sense to see how the youth sort themselves out.  National’s health and safety lawyers can be 27 different kinds of paranoid, the unit serving direct contact leader has to make it work. 

[fred8033]

24 minutes ago, John-in-KC said:

As far as age of Scouts are concerned, use mature judgment and common sense to see how the youth sort themselves out.  National’s health and safety lawyers can be 27 different kinds of paranoid, the unit serving direct contact leader has to make it work. 

Unit leaders need to use judgement when implementing scouting events, but we should NOT imply that the rules are not the rules.  When GTSS says on page two "Youth sharing tents must be no more than two years apart in age", then we have a duty to implement that.  

[Eagledad]

16 hours ago, dedkad said:

I hate backpacking on trails where horses are allowed. They chew up the trails so they are really dusty. You get stuck behind them on the trail and you're eating more dust. You get to your destination and finally find the perfect campsite only to find horse manure all over the nice flat area where you want to set up your tents. 

Same issue with cattle at Philmont. 

Barry

[Treflienne]

I just redid YPT, and noticed a detail I had missed before:  On YPT final quiz questions there are explanations about the correct answers.  The explanation to Q8 said (emphasis mine) "When sleeping in the same tent, youth must not be more than two years apart in age unless they are relatives."

I'd been thinking that I'd rather see a new fifth grade scout share a tent with her eight grade sister, rather than needing to be in a tent by herself,  and now I see that that is allowed. 

[qwazse]

8 hours ago, Treflienne said:

I just redid YPT, and noticed a detail I had missed before:  On YPT final quiz questions there are explanations about the correct answers.  The explanation to Q8 said (emphasis mine) "When sleeping in the same tent, youth must not be more than two years apart in age unless they are relatives."

I'd been thinking that I'd rather see a new fifth grade scout share a tent with her eight grade sister, rather than needing to be in a tent by herself,  and now I see that that is allowed. 

As long as you're not dealing with scouts of predominately Mediterranean origin. We're all cousins anyway.

[yknot]

On 5/30/2019 at 4:16 PM, fred8033 said:

Unit leaders need to use judgement when implementing scouting events, but we should NOT imply that the rules are not the rules.  When GTSS says on page two "Youth sharing tents must be no more than two years apart in age", then we have a duty to implement that.  

It is not just judgement it is understanding risk exposure. If BSA outlines a policy and you deviate from it, you increase your risk of being held personally liable if something happens.  That's why all those annoying rules are there -- BSA is trying to avoid risk. All of us at one time or another have likely bent a rule that didn't seem to make any sense. Just make sure you understand that you are not simply being a rebel and following the "old" ways but that you are possibly exposing yourself to enhanced liability. 

 

[Oldscout448]

6 minutes ago, yknot said:

 Just make sure you understand that you are not simply being a rebel and following the "old" ways but that you are possibly exposing yourself to enhanced liability. 

 

Which is why a lot of  Scouters with 20-30 years in the program have decided that it's just not worth it, and sadly walked away.

[Eagle94-A1]

7 hours ago, yknot said:

It is not just judgement it is understanding risk exposure. If BSA outlines a policy and you deviate from it, you increase your risk of being held personally liable if something happens.  That's why all those annoying rules are there -- BSA is trying to avoid risk. All of us at one time or another have likely bent a rule that didn't seem to make any sense. Just make sure you understand that you are not simply being a rebel and following the "old" ways but that you are possibly exposing yourself to enhanced liability. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

Which is why a lot of  Scouters with 20-30 years in the program have decided that it's just not worth it, and sadly walked away.

There are several things relating to BSA's rules that drive volunteers nuts.

First and foremost there is no one place find them all. Multiple publications cover different aspects of Scouting, and contradictions abound. Over the years, I have posted examples of these contradictions in BSA publications. Best example was when YPT2 came out, and a month later new YP rules went into effect, contradicting the new training.

Another problem is BSA changes the rules on an extremely irregular basis, and the word gets out months after the fact, unless it is a big deal and it gets on social media. Best example is the Tiger Cubs no longer being allowed to do shooting sports. That rule came out a few months back in May, before Cub Scout Day Camp season, and no one knew about it. Even NCS certified shooting sports directors, the ones who train folks to run CS shooting sports activities, didn't know about it. When it got posted on Facebook in September/October, several months after it went into affect,  there was so much protest that BSA that National had to rescind it.

Another issue is that national does not allow a transition period, making the rules mandatory immediately. Look at the original announcement regarding  18 year old's no longer counting towards 2 Deep, no more Patrol meetings without 2 registered adults over 21, etc. That announcement came out in March, and stated it was to go into effect immediately. Only protests from units, and councils, saying it would affect summer camp and HA base attendance, did National put in a transition period.

[fred8033]

On 11/5/2020 at 5:34 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

First and foremost there is no one place find them all.

G2SS has the core rules.  Swimming, shooting and other activities are easy to find.  

 

On 11/5/2020 at 5:34 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

Another problem is BSA changes the rules on an extremely irregular basis, ...

We do the best we can.  We're in a time of change.  Watch for updates, but keep running your program doing the best you can to follow the rules as you learn them.  At some point, you focus on your program and any rule changes are minor issues. 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

We do the best we can.  We're in a time of change.  Watch for updates, but keep running your program doing the best you can to follow the rules as you learn them.  At some point, you focus on your program and any rule changes are minor issues. 

For the most part you are right, rule changes are minor. But the October 1, 2018 changes effectively killed the Patrol Method in everything but name. No more patrol meetings when the Scouts are available, but the adults are not. No more day activities like hikes, fishing, grocery shopping, etc without adults. And 18 to 20 year olds no longer count towards 2 deep. That has affected many troops. National acknowledge this fact by  changing the implementation date from March 2018, 'Effective Immediately" to October 2018, several months AFTER summer camp and HA base season.

I had a conversation with one unit locally that this rule is hurting the troop. They relied heavily on the Patrol Method, having patrols do service projects and other activities on their own, They also relied on the 18-20 year olds for 2 deep since many of the ASMs have health issues. They may have gotten one 21+ adult, and would have three to five 18-20 years olds camping. Between COVID and the new rule, their camping program has taken a hit.

[fred8033]

10 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

For the most part you are right, rule changes are minor. But the October 1, 2018 changes effectively killed the Patrol Method in everything but name. No more patrol meetings when the Scouts are available, but the adults are not. No more day activities like hikes, fishing, grocery shopping, etc without adults. And 18 to 20 year olds no longer count towards 2 deep. That has affected many troops. National acknowledge this fact by  changing the implementation date from March 2018, 'Effective Immediately" to October 2018, several months AFTER summer camp and HA base season.

I had a conversation with one unit locally that this rule is hurting the troop. They relied heavily on the Patrol Method, having patrols do service projects and other activities on their own, They also relied on the 18-20 year olds for 2 deep since many of the ASMs have health issues. They may have gotten one 21+ adult, and would have three to five 18-20 years olds camping. Between COVID and the new rule, their camping program has taken a hit.

Yeah, to be honest, you've probably hit at one of the areas that we are less good. 

Our troop follows BSA G2SS strictly for hikes, camping, service, etc.   But if it's a social event such as movie theater, food shopping, going to the mall, going to the high school football game, then no we don't make sure adults are present.  We're just glad the scouts want to hang around together and grow their friendships.

We count both camping, service, etc, AND social events as patrol activities.   It's just the type of risk and type of activity.  Plus, I can easily find adults to go on hikes with the scouts, but few that want to hang around the mall with them or go to the movies.  

Edited November 8, 2020 by fred8033