Two adults 21 or over

[qwazse]

3 hours ago, Drastent said:

Right where I am at. In that age group, got Eagle through this troop, been a member of it for nearly a decade, but if my Troop only has 1 adult signed up to go, I'm essentially just another liability. 

@Drastent, It stinks on a level that I can't begin to contemplate.

During years 18-20, Son #1 and Son #2 were go-to guys for church youth group overnights. Meanwhile troop adults-over-40 were sucking the oxygen out of the room, and venturing had nothing to offer that they couldn't do on their own without the burden of paperwork and adult "minders."

And it's a downer for me, as well. What's the point of being an advisor if you have to be in the vicinity for every activity and meeting?

[RememberSchiff]

Meanwhile at summer camp, Provo is staffed with two competent, trustworthy , enthusiastic young men, both under 21.  

 

[RichardB]

The one source of truth https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/#a 

It would be good if you all reviewed it.       

@Saltface

Send me the question and response in a message.  I'll get that cleared up for you. 

RichardB

[MikeS72]

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

That is why they redid YPT2 , I guess it's YPT2.5 now  , about 2 or 3 months ago.

Two recent updates to YPT; one on March 1, when a newer iteration was released to account for some of the membership changes we have experienced.  I took the new version, and found it to be well done.  At the time of that release, we were told that new, optional modules were coming.  Those were released last week, and cover:

1.  Physical Abuse Prevention;  2. Exposure to Violence Prevention;  3. Emotional Abuse Prevention;  4. Neglect Prevention

These new optional modules are well worth taking a look at.

[Saltface]

4 hours ago, RichardB said:

 

@Saltface

Send me the question and response in a message.  I'll get that cleared up for you. 

RichardB

Sent.

[HelpfulTracks]

I met an Eagle Scout a few months back. Talked to him for a bit coming out of the hospital. He was 20 years old, about to marry his high school sweet heart and was enrolling in college. He wants to be a biomedical engineer. 

He lost both legs below the knees and part of his hand in Afghanistan. I assume from IED, he didn't say and I didn't pry. He did say he was an E4 and a squad leader over there. 

I couldn't imagine telling him he was not ANYTHING enough to be a full fledged Scout leader if he chose. Yet I have met fifty-something year old Scouters I wouldn't let walk my dog let alone depend on them to get my children back home safely from an camp out. 

[TAHAWK]

On 4/9/2019 at 2:07 PM, Jameson76 said:

Funniest thing I've read today

Hope for the best.  Plan for the worst.   When I joined the 1,000,000+ employee Bell System, my boss reminded me: "Remember, they have a business to run.  Your job is to help them to it, not tell them 'No, no, no.'"   These birds are far less competent.

[elitts]

On 4/9/2019 at 7:35 PM, RichardB said:

The one source of truth https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/#a 

It would be good if you all reviewed it.       

@Saltface

Send me the question and response in a message.  I'll get that cleared up for you. 

RichardB

 

It would be good if the things written there were consistent and there was always clarity on when something is a rule and when it is a guideline.

For example:

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Adult Supervision

Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings.

But the FAQ says this:

Q:  The Barriers to Abuse say that there must be two registered adults present for all Scouting activities and meetings.  Does that include merit badge counseling? Fund-raising events?

A. Yes. However, the parent or legal guardian of the Scout may serve as the second adult. This parent or legal guardian does not have to be a registered leader.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So now we have a rule that says there must be two registered adults and an FAQ regarding the rules that says you only have to have 1 registered leader if there is another adult who is a parent of the scout.

[TAHAWK]

4 hours ago, elitts said:

It would be good if the things written there were consistent and there was always clarity on when something is a rule and when it is a guideline.

For example:

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Adult Supervision

Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings.

But the FAQ says this:

Q:  The Barriers to Abuse say that there must be two registered adults present for all Scouting activities and meetings.  Does that include merit badge counseling? Fund-raising events?

A. Yes. However, the parent or legal guardian of the Scout may serve as the second adult. This parent or legal guardian does not have to be a registered leader.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So now we have a rule that says there must be two registered adults and an FAQ regarding the rules that says you only have to have 1 registered leader if there is another adult who is a parent of the scout [ AND THE ACTIVITY IS A MEETING OF ONE OR MORE MERIT BADGE CANDIDATES WITH A MERIT.BADGE COUNSELOR TO WORK ON ONE OR MORE MERIT BADGES].

Indeed, clarity is good.  👌

Rationality would also be useful, probably even more important than consistency., a point that escapes those in the Safety Bubble  🐧

[RichardB]

4 hours ago, elitts said:

 

So now we have a rule that says there must be two registered adults and an FAQ regarding the rules that says you only have to have 1 registered leader if there is another adult who is a parent of the scout.

@elitts  lets assume you are not a registered leader in the BSA.  Just Timmy or Tammy Scouts parent.     

Does Timmy need to work on a MB with a MB counselor tonight?    You could be the second adult.  Same for Tammy working a shift in front of the local mart for that camp card or popcorn sale.    Anything else, meet the two-deep leadership requirement.   

So, how would you make the FAQ clear, or do you think it better that the FAQ be removed.   

What is your solution?   

[RichardB]

@TAHAWKin your embedded example (multiple youth) , a parent is not adequate.   So what is your proposed wording?  

[TAHAWK]

2 minutes ago, RichardB said:

@elitts  lets assume you are not a registered leader in the BSA.  Just Timmy or Tammy Scouts parent.     

Does Timmy need to work on a MB with a MB counselor tonight?    You could be the second adult.  Same for Tammy working a shift in front of the local mart for that camp card or popcorn sale.    Anything else, meet the two-deep leadership requirement.   

So, how would you make the FAQ clear, or do you think it better that the FAQ be removed.   

What is your solution?   

I have it in writing from National Council months ago that the second adult at a meeting i have as a Merit Badge Counselor with a candidate need not be a registered Scouter. notwithstanding the "two registered adult Scouter" (as opposed to child Scouters?) rule.   I rely on that formal advice.

[DuctTape]

My proposed wording would be to simplify, and get rid of the "registered" and 21+, all the exceptions, and weird iterations, age, gender, blah blah.

Just make it "no one on one contact", that is it.

[TAHAWK]

1 hour ago, RichardB said:

@TAHAWKin your embedded example (multiple youth) , a parent is not adequate.   So what is your proposed wording?  

I never said " a parent" is adequate.  National council, citing legal council for some reason, responded to my question about meeting with merit badge candidates as follows:

"National legal counsel stated that 1 person must be registered (Merit Badge Counselor) and the 2nd ["registered"] adult does not have to be registered but must be over 21 – suggestion is a parent.

...Mandy Nora
Member Care Contact Center
Boy Scouts of America
972.580.2489 "

Worried about risk management?  That was once one of my jobs at AT&T when it had over 1,000,000 employees.

The are issues greater than whether Dad is the "second adult" although not "registered.

The Scouting Guide to Survival

1. deet

Insect repellants containing deet are generally safe,  So are motor vehicles.

The Scouting Guide to Survival, Boy Scouts of America (2018), discusses using insect repellents containing up to 100% deet; does not discuss limiting multiple applications;  does not mention adult supervision; does mention use with sun screens, and does not mention age as a criteria for application or self-application. 

Meanwhile, Consumer Reports gets a lot of attention, and it says: "Our previous tests show that concentrations of 30 percent [deet] provide the same protection against mosquitoes as higher percentages for up to 8 hours. But higher concentrations of deet have been linked to rashes, disorientation, and seizures. That’s why Consumer Reports says you should avoid mosquito repellents with more than 30 percent deet [per American Academy of Pediatrics (30-33% max)] and not use it at all on infants younger than 2 months [per American Academy of Pediatrics ]."  (Perhaps this is why Canada barred sales of products containing more the 30% deet in 2002.) 

The USCDC says: "Do not allow children under 10 years of age to apply repellent themselves. . . . (DEET is toxic if swallowed.). " 

The USEPA says, "Do not allow young children to apply this product." 

"Once you return indoors, be sure your child washes with soap and water to remove the repellent and wash the sprayed clothing before wearing again." American Academy of Pediatrics

"The right concentration of DEET for:

• adults and children older than 12 years old is up to 30%
• children aged 2 to 12 years is up to 10%
  • you can apply the product up to 3 times daily
• children aged 6 months to 2 years old is up to 10%
  • you should not apply the product more than once a day

For children younger than 12 years old, do not use a DEET product on a daily basis for more than a month.

For infants younger than 6 months old, do not use an insect repellent containing DEET. Instead, use a mosquito net when babies are outdoors in a crib or stroller."  Government of Canada (Health Canada).

" [V]olunteers who have applied concentrations of 50% to 75% DEET have developed erythema with vesiculobullous skin necrosis and residual scarring.¹⁶ DEET concentrations in the range of 10% to 35% will provide adequate insect bite protection, with concentrations below 30% recommended for children 2 years of age and older."

Wilderness and Environmental Medicine, Wilderness Medical Society (March, 2016)

 The USFDA recommends that deet-containing products be applied over, and not under, sun screens. Ross, E.A., Savage, K.A., Utley, L.J., and Tebbett, I.R. "Insect repellent interactions: sunscreens enhance DEET (N, N-diethyl-m-toluamide) absorption,"  Drug Metab Dispos. (2004), at 32: 783–785.

The BSA book does not mention other, safer products that test as just effective against mosquitoes and more effective against biting flies and ticks, such as oil of Lemon  Eucalyptus, approved by the USCDC and USEPA.  Id.

 

2. warm-water immersion for severe hypothermia.

 The same BSA book suggests that victims with severe hypothermia to the point of unconsciousness be emerged in a tub of warm water.

The BSA in all other publications on that topic STRONGLY counsels to do no such thing as external warming of extremities presents a significant risk of death.  Every other authority that I can locate, including the Red Cross, Mayo Clinic and Wilderness Medical Society STRONGLY reject immersion in warm water for severe hypothermia cases.  See, e.g., Journal of Emergency Medicine, at http://www.jems.com/articles/print/volume-42/issue-11/features/identifying-and-managing-accidental-hypothermia.html?utm_ content=bufferec6c2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook. com&utm _campaign=buffer.

 

Other examples of dangerous advice in BSA publications are out there, or we can focus on prohibited activities like kids "shooting" kids with squirt guns.

 

 

[TAHAWK]

4 hours ago, DuctTape said:

My proposed wording would be to simplify, and get rid of the "registered" and 21+, all the exceptions, and weird iterations, age, gender, blah blah.

Just make it "no one on one contact", that is it.

My proposal is to entirely eliminate the new rule, root and branch.  

The  Merit Badge Counselor and any other Scout, much less a parent, is adequate, as is meeting in a public place, such as a library or police station.  The objective is that "light" shine on the contact, and registration of an adult does nothing to assure greater transparency.  Your new rule means I cannot meet a candidate at FBI headquarters with the Special Agent in Charge present - unless he is registered, of course.  Would Christ do, if not registered? Buddha?  

And the entire notion of adults present and "supervising" a patrol meeting or patrol hike to the neighborhood park for lunch is contrary to the basic tenants of Scouting, if not BSA, for 111 years.  

Destroying the "business" to "save" it is not rational.  

Edited April 13, 2019 by TAHAWK