Intent of First Class GPS Navigation Requirement?

[Eagledad]

46 minutes ago, Rock Doc said:

I hear you and agree with your sentiment - not everything has to be geared around high adventure and skills are scaleable. I keep harping on the use of car-based GPS because Second Class scouts are almost always not yet driving and therefore couldn't independently apply the skills. That's why I'd lean towards teaching GPS skills at a local park or even the CO facility if it's reasonably large. A simple course could be set up with way points/coordinates to help scouts learn the device's input interface and understand the level of accuracy of different devices in different settings (tall buildings, tree cover, etc).

What if a pilot offers to take a plane of scouts flying to follow courses they set in the GPS. That would be pretty cool.

I fail to understand how setting the course in the car is different than following a simple course set up by troop adults in the field. 

Barry

[DuctTape]

Too many (not on this forum) seem to think the requirements are to be done at home and then signed off when accompanied by a parent note. This is not cub scouts.

First step is instruction on the GPS etc, by their Patrol Leader, Instructor, etc... This instruction should include using the gps to determine location, provide driving directions, walking directions, off road travel, etc... The instruction should not be limited to the most basic minimal "sign-off" of the requirement.

Then they practice.

Then they are tested.

I always like to have requirements be part of the adventure as opposed to a stand-alone-I-did-it-once-now-sign-my-book. So, while the scout might have practiced with their folks in the car, with video evidence. They still need to be "tested". (assuming instruction took place).

What *I* would do is acknowledge the learning and practice and then let them know that on the next Scout activity they can ride with me and use the GPS to determine their location, and plot a route to our destination and provide me with the directions as we go. I would also like to ensure that the instruction recieved was more than the basics.

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by DuctTape

[Eagledad]

10 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Too many seem to think the requirements are to be done at home and then signed off when accompanied by a parent note. This is not cub scouts.

Nobody said that, you aren't reading the replies in their context. The question was what was our interpretation of the written requirement. 

What about the knots, DuctTape? Most troops sit and show the scout how to tie a knot and then demonstrate the knot. The text doesn't "Demonstrate the the knot in the field on a camping device". The creativity of how to teach the knot is left up to the troop.

Rock Doc made up the car scenario, not some scout. Rockdoc ask what if, but the text is quite clear on the expectations. If a SM wants the scout to gain more from the experience, then they need to be creative and plan an activity for the scouts. 

Barry

Edited March 25, 2019 by Eagledad

[Eagledad]

14 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Too many (not on this forum) seem to think the requirements are to be done at home and then signed off when accompanied by a parent note. This is not cub scouts.

By the way DuctTape, my Webelos got just about all their requirements completed on outdoors outings and campouts, having fun. 

Barry

[DuctTape]

17 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

By the way DuctTape, my Webelos got just about all their requirements completed on outdoors outings and campouts, having fun. 

Barry

Barry,

 

I must apologize. My post was not intended to be judgemental of anyone here. I am sorry if you took it that way.

Many times questions and discussion arise here focusing solely on the requirement itself. My intent was only to broaden the discussion by including the program and the other elements of advancement as a method. 

[willray]

3 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

4b only specifies using some type of GPS device, making a scout use it in conjunction with a map would be adding to the requirements.

I would suggest that it's appropriate to note that the requirement says to "Use GPS" - not an embedded GPS-enabled navigation system.  The requirement says to use the GPS to find and follow the route.  It does not say to use the embedded navigation system in a TomTom navigation system, or in Google/Apple's Maps/etc, to find the route.

Clicking the "directions to..." button on a GPS-enabled navigation system is to "Use a GPS to find and follow a route", as "phoning in an order for takeout" is to "planning and preparing a meal"...

[Thunderbird]

.

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Thunderbird
removed because previous poster already made this point

[Eagledad]

12 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Barry,

 

I must apologize. My post was not intended to be judgemental of anyone here. I am sorry if you took it that way.

Many times questions and discussion arise here focusing solely on the requirement itself. My intent was only to broaden the discussion by including the program and the other elements of advancement as a method. 

Your advice has always been very good and wanted.

It's probably me.  My kids even tell me that I can be too simplistic in discussions. "There goes dad being black and white again. We need some gray dad."

But I've just developed a style over the years of where understanding the very basic of the subject first helps folks understand better how expand in a productive direction. Which is exactly what your post provided in this discussion. 

Barry

[Rock Doc]

Thanks for all the great feedback. Sounds like the consensus is:

• Keep it FUN and don't make the requirement too burdensome!
• Suggest to the PLC that they consider teaching GPS skills using a simple short course at a local park or CO campus (maybe use geocaches as motivators?)
• Smartphones, dedicated GPS units, and fixed units all have pros/cons; learn them
• Incorporate GPS skills into campouts/activities to encourage mastery (not required for advancement)
• See if you can find a pilot to take you flying!!!

[Eagledad]

2 minutes ago, Rock Doc said:

Thanks for all the great feedback. Sounds like the consensus is:

• Keep it FUN and don't make the requirement too burdensome!
• Suggest to the PLC that they consider teaching GPS skills using a simple short course at a local park or CO campus (maybe use geocaches as motivators?)
• Smartphones, dedicated GPS units, and fixed units all have pros/cons; learn them
• Incorporate GPS skills into campouts/activities to encourage mastery (not required for advancement)
• See if you can find a pilot to take you flying!!!

Pretty good. 

Now, how about those knots?

Barry

[Rock Doc]

6 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Pretty good. 

Now, how about those knots?

Barry

My crossovers do seem to struggle with the left handed, double cork 1080 alpine butterfly. Knots by Grog hasn't been helpful. Any suggestions?

[Eagledad]

18 minutes ago, Rock Doc said:

My crossovers do seem to struggle with the left handed, double cork 1080 alpine butterfly. Knots by Grog hasn't been helpful. Any suggestions?

Hmm. Usually I answer these questions with "Take the scouts for a ride in an airplane." I'll have to think on this one. 

Barry

[Terasec]

21 hours ago, Rock Doc said:

Barry,

You are correct, although this is a rank requirement not a MB. The text for 4b just seems a tad vague for a rank requirement. Would you give credit if a scout programmed a route into their parents/guardians car navigation system and were then driven along the route?

no,

no parental assistance

scout should do it on his own,

if he cant drive, he can bike, walk, or find some other method

 

[Terasec]

19 hours ago, willray said:

I would suggest that it's appropriate to note that the requirement says to "Use GPS" - not an embedded GPS-enabled navigation system.  The requirement says to use the GPS to find and follow the route.  It does not say to use the embedded navigation system in a TomTom navigation system, or in Google/Apple's Maps/etc, to find the route.

Clicking the "directions to..." button on a GPS-enabled navigation system is to "Use a GPS to find and follow a route", as "phoning in an order for takeout" is to "planning and preparing a meal"...

does say "or other navigation system"

doesn't say anything about creating your own route, just following the route,

 

Demonstrate how to use a handheld GPS unit, GPS app on a smartphone or other electronic navigation system. Use a GPS to find your current location, a destination of your choice, and the route you will take to get there. Follow that route to arrive at your destination.

[TMSM]

This has been a problem with our troop for the last few years. Our older scouts did not have this requirement and have no idea how to teach this. Typically they (first class and above) sign off on requirements and we had a few sign off on the use of a car GPS using a street address. As SM I feel that the BSA is an outdoor program and a handheld should be used in the back country or while camping for 4b. Our solution was to have a meeting with the scouts and discuss what they felt should be taught and learned in this requirement. The consensus was to learn waypoints, lat/long, working the interface on a hand held so that GPS skills would be ready for high adventure. We also talked abput maps vs GPS which was very interesting.