Leadership Disagreements

[EastCst]

Hi, Relatively new to leadership but husband has been in scouting for entire life. We both are now very inolved in Pack leadership for a large, well established Pack. A bit of history - this Pack was recently led by a very nice guy who was not following the program much, but was liked, and has since moved on. Under our leadership has doubled in size and 95% of comments are very positive. 

There are 1-2 committee members (den leaders) who do a good job at leading their dens but are untrained in the program and yet can sometimes be very vocal (complaining) about wanting to keep certain things exactly the way it's "always" been done or "tradition" -- though funnily enough they even disagree amongst themselves about these things and how they were done the past 1-2-3 years. They will also agree that there are no "traditions" other than the scout program if their opinion goes another way.  

Examples: Type of food at B&G, whether to do flyers or just social media in the fall recruiting, or other things that do not affect the actual program. (We have another fundraising issue but I'll post that separately.)

To us, these are minor things that could go either way, and we have been successful at delegating these back to them if they want to do it a "certain way," but there seems to be a lot of complaining and needing to state opinions without wanting to contribute ownership by these few people.  

Any advice? Who actually makes decisions when there is a debate over these seemingly minor issues? Is it a vote? Is it the Cubmaster? Committee Chair? Generally, how can we manage committee meetings to de-escalate or avoid these topics becoming a problem area when they are really not important?

We do have an agenda but they often bring up random topics not on the agenda.

Do we postpone those strange issues to a future meeting and say that is not on the agenda tonight?

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

@EastCst welcome to scouter.com

[Jameson76]

Settle it by building a Thunderdome....Two leaders enter; one leader leaves!

[DuctTape]

Welcome. The decision for the minor details is made by the person(s) who are running the "event". These details are not discussed or decided by the pack committee, but by those tasked with accomplishing the event. 

For example. The B&G banquet. There should be a sub-committee (mostly non-pack-committee) tasked with organizing and implementing. They are given a budget, and some parameters which are sometimes tradition (like location and date), and everyone else supports them. At pack committee, they are an agenda item to report on progress, and answer questions, but not to deliberate details. Those are argued at "their meeting". Pack committee should not micro-manage. Only step in if BSA protocols like GTSS are not being followed. 

If random topics are brought up not on the agenda, then be a bit more strict about Roberts Rules. Politely, but with authority cut them off and say, "we are on agenda item 4, and we will follow the agenda. Any other topics may be brought up under "good of the order", or added to new business at the next meeting. "

[willray]

1 hour ago, EastCst said:

There are 1-2 committee members (den leaders) who do a good job at leading their dens but are untrained in the program and yet can sometimes be very vocal ...

Examples: Type of food at B&G, whether to do flyers or just social media in the fall recruiting, or other things that do not affect the actual program. (We have another fundraising issue but I'll post that separately.)...

 

To the do-ers go the rights to decide how to do:   "We have to do X for the Blue and Gold meal, that's how it's always been done!" -> "Great!  Thanks for volunteering to take care of the B&G meal!  Would you like any help with that?".  Or, if you're planning on doing something different -> "Well, Jim has already volunteered to take care of that this year, and I think he's planning on doing Y instead, but if you'd like to do the meal for next year, we can put you down as our lead volunteer right now!"

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by willray

[EastCst]

Yes! That is exactly what we did, minus the offer to help! Same with the flyers. Hopefully that may temper future complaints.

[fred8033]

Voting only helps if that is the personality of the unit committee. Otherwise, it's best done by consensus.  That's my experience.  Your mileage can vary.

Leave details to those taking responsibility for doing the work.  I'd practice a few ways of politely saying that in the committee.  I'd ask the questioning parent ... as relaxed as possible ... something like ... "is that a show stopper or can we leave the details to the blue and gold chair?"  ... "are you volunteering to help the blue and gold chair?"  ... It really depends on your personality and whether you can say it politely with a smile and not upset the other person.

I've found that one or two problem parents can often ruin the tone of unit committee or unit leadership.  

[ParkMan]

Hi @EastCst,

Here's what I've found works for me.

4 hours ago, EastCst said:

To us, these are minor things that could go either way, and we have been successful at delegating these back to them if they want to do it a "certain way," but there seems to be a lot of complaining and needing to state opinions without wanting to contribute ownership by these few people.  

Any advice? Who actually makes decisions when there is a debate over these seemingly minor issues? Is it a vote? Is it the Cubmaster? Committee Chair? Generally, how can we manage committee meetings to de-escalate or avoid these topics becoming a problem area when they are really not important?

The person who makes the decision is the person most responsible for the decision.  i.e., if it's a membership question - it's the membership chair.  if it's a pack meeting question, it's the Cubmaster.  I found people really appreciated it when you empowered them to make decisions that were relevant to what they do.

When a minor decision came upin a committee meeting and there wasn't a clear person who was organizationally appropriate to decide, I'd generally throw if out for quick input: "hey folks, anyone have a recommendation on whether we want blue streamers or yellow streamers?".  But, as Committee Chair, I was prepared to decide in the absence of a clear choice.   Outside of meetings, I tended to be pretty quick to decide things.  Having the leaders or committee discuss every little thing just bogs down the pack.  Don't hesitate to be a decision maker.

When there were important decisions I'd ask the committee for input.  Hi all, the Cubmaster would like us to replace the Pinewood Derby track - what do you all think?

I learned the importance years ago of pack legacy.  Leaders are generally pretty proud of their pack or troop.  So, you've got to give some deferance to that.  What I'd so is look at decisions to do something new and ask "Is there a clear benefit to changing this?"  If so, then change it.  if not, then go with the old way.  

4 hours ago, EastCst said:

We do have an agenda but they often bring up random topics not on the agenda.

Do we postpone those strange issues to a future meeting and say that is not on the agenda tonight?

One trick I learned when trying to change behavior like this at a Committee meeting is to simply be up front about it.  Tell everyone at the start of the meeting that you're making an increased effort to keep to the agenda and to do that you've reserved time at the end for new topics.  Then, as they come up simply tell folks - thanks, got it noted for the new topics section of the meeting.

[qwazse]

@EastCst, welcome to the forums!

I don't have much to add, except this ...

Son #1's cubmaster (of about 10 years ago) was laid to rest yesterday. He was a stand-up guy. But there were moments of contention. I thought, "What was so important that everyone had to dig their heels in?" Time is short. For some, way shorter than anyone thinks. Remind everyone of that. Move on.

[SSScout]

""Aye, they be more like guidelines than rules....' 

And we have had those guidelines for more than 100 years....  I favor consensus, which depends firstly on good, continuous communication (do we need the cinematic reference for that?)

Consensus depends on respect,  overall knowledge,  being open to suggestions from others, and a willingness to accept help (not just insistence on doing things alone).  

The BSA Scouting program is fairly flexible as to how it can be carried out.  Rank requirements? Stuff like that? Adapting, yes. Changing, no. Where do we always camp ? The spring canoe trip? The winter ski trip?   

Personal relations are another thing.   I always refer back to the Scout Promise and Law.   After that, maybe the Sermon on the Mount. No, I guess that should come first, THEN the Scout Promise and Law.   Maybe the "Golden Rule" should be third....

Tradition?  A good place to start.  Mr. Stabler ALWAYS planted his acre of sweet corn for the Hospital Supper a certain number of days before the supper, so the corn could be picked just in time for eatin'.  Sorry, Mr. Stabler  passed on about fifteen  years ago, so much for THAT tradition, now they have to go to the Eastern Shore for good sweet corn.  But the Lions Club still collects it and shucks it at 6am so it can be boiled at 10am....... 

Give the Scouts tradition.  Let them move on from that.