Soliciting ideas : how do you notice, and recognize, scoutly behavior?

[willray]

11 hours ago, Eagledad said:

That’s a good idea. Just leave a box of Fireballs in the middle of camp for any scout to grab when they see a good deed. 

...We don’t use fireballs to change behavior, we used them as a fun reminder of how good it feels to serve others...

I'd like to analyze this a little more:  I'm curious - does anyone else have the general feeling that this scenario would function as a reward more for the fireball/thanks giver, than the fireball/thanks recipient?  I want to reward both/turn both into habits, so it's not a bad outcome, but somehow it feels differently focused than other "reward" methods we've tried.

Will

 

 

[Eagledad]

11 hours ago, willray said:

I'd like to analyze this a little more:  I'm curious - does anyone else have the general feeling that this scenario would function as a reward more for the fireball/thanks giver, than the fireball/thanks recipient?  I want to reward both/turn both into habits, so it's not a bad outcome, but somehow it feels differently focused than other "reward" methods we've tried.

Will

 

Interesting the timing of this thread. I went to pick of a Diet Coke for my wifes usual morning pick-me-up at the corner Quick-Mart. The young lady ( 25 or so) turned around and saw me standing there holding the coke and told me that it was on her and to have a great day. Not that I was having a bad day, but she was the beginning of a really good day.

My experience is that the newness of new things wears off pretty quick with scouts. So, the Fireballs (or whatever) will turn into the Troops theme or motto of showing appreciation of special acts, not just rewards. The scouts are pretty smart about these things and they will get it. Of  course, they will want a little sweet now for themselves and grab a Fireball. But that day the SPL observes a scout from a different patrol helping a scout start a fire, he will be glad for the fireballs because he wants to show off that scout's special act. What a great way to express his heart outwardly of living the Scout Law.

However, habits change with will. Units struggle today because adults in general are too close for scouts to feel comfortable making decisions based on their own personal principles. Scouts this age don't want to be lectured, so if they feel they will be judged, their actions are more to appease the judges than to appease himself. A scout needs freedom to discover his natural processing of reason and conclude for himself any advantages of change. Then, a scout must practice consistent actions until the actions become a habit. 

I remember talking to a scout about changing habits and he said he was focused on making all good choices. I gave an example of how a few small bad choices by all of us make that a harder process. I asked him if showing up to a meeting without scout pants was a right or wrong decision. He understood exactly what I meant by small bad choices interrupting a pattern of right decisions. I told him that bad habits are often developed through consistent small bad choices,  not a couple of big bad choices.

Of course we don't harp on every wrong decision. But, we do like to remind scouts how to develop patterns of good choices. That is what your idea of Fireballs represents. Fireballs are a small reminder of good choices.

But what is most important for a scout is knowing what the Scoutmaster considers "consistent acceptable (really more unacceptable) behavior so that they have a consistent direction to work toward. A compass, so to speak. That's what Fireball and Tootsie Pops give the scouts. I didn't understand how important that consistent vision of measure was until a scout joined us who had no adult guidance  or support in his life.  Two of the traits of Love defined in the bible are "hope and protection". He had none of either in his life. This scout was my first real introduction to the true harms of neglect. He was so thirsty for direction and boundaries that he relished defined expectations and guidance. We saw habits of behavior change with him occur faster with him than any other scout. I believe for him change was survival. 

Anyway, I think you have some great ideas and thoughts here. I'm excited to see how they form out in this thread.

Barry

Edited March 18, 2019 by Eagledad

[Mom2Scout]

My thoughts on this... encourage scouts to share with their patrol leader when they see others who do good turns.  This can be passed up the chain and perhaps tallied for a mention at a COH. 

 

On the flip side... there are a few rude scouts in my son's troop and he has a hard time dealing with that because he gets bullied at times in school.  I told him that perhaps he should gently remind them that a scout is kind and courteous.  It may just get them to stop and think about their behavior.

[qwazse]

12 hours ago, willray said:

I'd like to analyze this a little more:  I'm curious - does anyone else have the general feeling that this scenario would function as a reward more for the fireball/thanks giver, than the fireball/thanks recipient?  I want to reward both/turn both into habits, so it's not a bad outcome, but somehow it feels differently focused than other "reward" methods we've tried. ...

(Side note: I keep laughing because our new SM is a fan of the adult beverage of the same name. So, deep breath, get beyond the sillies ....)

Yes, recognizing the different ways that others hew to ideals is a big "reward" in the scout who does it. Usually that scout is in the middle of his/her teen years, and isolation will be a threat to his psyche for the next two or three decades. One form of isolation is thinking that you are the "last good man/woman" standing. By looking out for the good in others, you discover that that's not true. You'll find someone working through their ideals to everyone's mutual benefit and be uplifted. That's why "recognition" is specifically a method of venturing: it's synergistic with "ideals" and essential in the life of a maturing teen.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

(Side note: I keep laughing because our new SM is a fan of the adult beverage of the same name. So, deep breath, get beyond the sillies ....)

Goobers?

Barry

[willray]

4 hours ago, Eagledad said:

My experience is that the newness of new things wears off pretty quick with scouts. So, the Fireballs (or whatever) will turn into the Troops theme or motto of showing appreciation of special acts, not just rewards. 

I really like this way of thinking of the process.  It’s excellent shorthand for the mental model and process, and will really help with explaining it to people!

I wonder if there’s a way to extend the idea into some kind of inter-patrol competition.  Or maybe better, to do something simultaneously that functions as a “scout values” inter-patrol competition, so that you get the benefits of patrol -members working to support each-other to “win”.   

What I've been trying to come up with in the inter-patrol arena, are things like awarding ribbons to hang on their patrol flag for “good deeds, and then letting them “buy” rewards by turning in some number of ribbons.  “Rewards” in this context being things like them getting to pick a desert for the adults to cook for the troop, or camping/cooking supplies for their patrol box.

the ribbons idea though doesn’t work if the scouts are doing the giving out ribbons, because they don’t want to give another patrol a leg-up at winning.  Somehow that needs to be offset so that both the giving patrol and receiving patrol are rewarded.  Maybe 2-part ribbons that get separated and half kept, half given out (friendship-necklace style)?  Any thoughts?

Will

 

 

[The Latin Scot]

A CAUTIONARY TALE

I remember when I was in Scouts, just after I became a Life Scout, we got a new Scoutmaster. And this new Scoutmaster came up with the idea of "Scout bucks," a system by which boys could earn little paper 'dollars' (somewhat akin to Monopoly money) by meeting various expectations or when caught acting "Scout-like." If your uniform was perfect, you got a buck. If you had your book, you got another book. A merit badge earned you another, and a rank advancement earned you bucks in increments of 5 (Tenderfoot = $5, 2nd Class = $10, et cetera, but Eagle earned you $50).

At first the system worked well enough. My fellow Scouts started uniforming better, and there were some improvements in behavior here and there. But after a while, the system stagnated and its inherent flaws were made manifest. First of all, the same kids kept winning all the dollars because they were quiet goody-two-shoes(-es? -ers?) who didn't have to try particularly hard to behave in the first place and were already moving forward in their advancement. Then the ones who weren't earning much started giving up on the idea since they knew they would never have the dough to win the good prizes anyway. THEN after a year of this we found out that the prizes were extravagantly over the top - including a brand-new computer, a campaign hat, really high-value knives, et cetera. But since this was after a year of the system going, it was too late for the apathetic Scouts to change their act and have a go at the good prizes, which should have been the point of the whole idea in the first place. AND THEN the poor sweet sucker who actually had enough of this made-up moolah to get the computer (he, of course, being me) got picked on MORE THAN EVER because he/I basically got a new computer for college without even trying, which made things harder for him/me during my last year of Scouting and built up deep resentment among the other boys who never cared much for Scouting before, and now had a serious vendetta against it after they discovered they had been swindled by a poorly thought-out, poorly executed plan. So the good kids got bullied even more, and the troubled ones became more frustrated and angry with Scouting than ever.

So be careful! The idea of recognition and advancement is already built in to the very fabric of Scouting, and there's no need to go beyond the system that is already in place. Do Scouting right, and it becomes its own reward. The tale of the Unknown Scout is perhaps the greatest example of how we should serve - quietly, helpfully, and without reward or recognition - because we are Scouts, and we don't need, accept nor expect rewards for doing what we already know is right. That kind of service is the most fulfilling of all.

And if you simply MUST do something to unload your heart that's overflowing with pride and admiration for these Scouts, what's the best kind of recognition? Simple - GRATITUDE. A heartfelt compliment, meaningful expressions of thanks, a note or a message or just kind comments to the parents/guardians. Words that make him know beyond any doubt that he is LOVED and ESTEEMED by his leaders. Nothing fills a boy with greater self-worth than the kind and sincere praise of the adults he respects. That's greater than any prize or reward could ever be, and it will shape his character without stuffing his coffers. Be open and obvious with your praise. Heaven knows these Scouts deserve it.

Edited March 18, 2019 by The Latin Scot

[Eagledad]

21 minutes ago, willray said:

I really like this way of thinking of the process.  It’s excellent shorthand for the mental model and process, and will really help with explaining it to people!

I wonder if there’s a way to extend the idea into some kind of inter-patrol competition.  Or maybe better, to do something simultaneously that functions as a “scout values” inter-patrol competition, so that you get the benefits of patrol -members working to support each-other to “win”.   

What I've been trying to come up with in the inter-patrol arena, are things like awarding ribbons to hang on their patrol flag for “good deeds, and then letting them “buy” rewards by turning in some number of ribbons.  “Rewards” in this context being things like them getting to pick a desert for the adults to cook for the troop, or camping/cooking supplies for their patrol box.

the ribbons idea though doesn’t work if the scouts are doing the giving out ribbons, because they don’t want to give another patrol a leg-up at winning.  Somehow that needs to be offset so that both the giving patrol and receiving patrol are rewarded.  Maybe 2-part ribbons that get separated and half kept, half given out (friendship-necklace style)?  Any thoughts?

Will

 

 

What you are talking about Competition. Competition is how troops have been intensifying Patrol Method and living the Scout Law since the beginning. That hasn't changed. What has changed is how scouts want to be rewarded for their success. Ribbons were very popular when I was a scout, but scouts today don't even like patrol flags. 

You have the right idea, you just need to find the rewards that motivate competition. Our troop used to do the Golden Spoon competition at each camp out. The Scoutmaster would sample Saturday Night Patrol meal and judge the best. The Golden Spoon was handed over each camp out. 

Anyway, done correctly, competition forces team work and team work forces each patrol member to be responsible, or the team fails. That expectation causes stress and stress is where scouts start making decisions without thought of the Scout Law. That is when storming starts and that is where scout discover the limits of making decisions based from the Scout Law.

Unfortunately the BSA doesn't do a good job helping adults handle these situations. Adults tend to over-react by telling the scouts they are being bad and to CUT-IT-OUT! In reality, this is where the Scoutmaster should shine. The Scoutmaster listens to the scouts and ask questions to get the them thinking why they acted the way they did and the other possible actions or decisions they could have chosen, base from the Scout Law. It takes practice to recognize these opportunities, and even more practice in quietly listening and asking questions without getting emotionally directive. 

I know it using stress to drive scouts to learn from their decisions sounds backwards, but stress is the best teacher and a clever Scoutmaster finds struggle where ever they can. It doesn't take much either. Just following the camp agenda forces the patrol to work as a team to get the objective completed on time. Cooks have to get the meals cooked in a limited time, KP has to be completed in limited time and campsite clean up has to be completed in limited time. "Time" is the Scoutmasters friend, the shorter the better (more stress). Scouts don't like stress, so it causes them to re-evaluate themselves and seek solutions. One example I can think of is breaking camp. Our Troop used to take 2.5 hours to break camp and cause us a lot of frustrations with the parents and the COR. So, we came up with an idea. If the scouts could break camp in one hour, the adult drivers would make a junk food stop on the way home. It took them a few campouts, but they did it. Then, they got it down to 45 minutes, eventually the troop only took 30 minutes to break camp. I challenge any troop to do that. 

I'm off track. Whatever motivation you are looking for, look for reward in growth. The patrol leader who lost his cool the last campout needs another chance to lead the team to success. Loosing their cool under stressful situations is basically forgetting to be friendly, courteous and kind. How does he do that, well teach him to slow down the situation down, delegate more or remove the problem scout. Don't yell, simply ask for them to help or comply. Same goes with the scout who struggles with the request of the PL. That scout is not only not being friendly, courteous and kind, they are also not being trustworthy or loyal. Sometimes learning to serve the leader is harder than the leader learning to serve the team. 

I think you are on the right track and we can all learns some good ideas here. The goal is for scouts to make wrong decisions so they can contemplate a right decision. I remember a tent of 4 excited new scouts jabbering up a storm the first night of summer until 2:00 at night. The SPL had to warn them several times, but they jsut couldn't help themselves. I got up and asked them to go on a hike we me. At first they were terrified they were in a lot of trouble, but it was a gorgeous night and the stars were brit. I stopped about every five minutes to talk about the stars, or night hiking techniques or anything to get them to relax.  After about a mile, we stopped to talk about anything, and then I asked them why we went on the hike. I didn't say they were in trouble, but they assumed that. I told them they just needed to walk off a little energy. Then we talked about what they should have done. The hike was out of place and unusual, so the scouts felt stressed enough to think about their choices. It's really wasn't hard for them to figure out their wrong choices. They never caused the SPL to get up past lights-out ever again.

Your are on the right track, push the scouts to recognize good and bad habits, and encourage each other to develop good habits. There must be a 1000 ways to do this.

Barry

 

[willray]

42 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

A CAUTIONARY TALE

I remember when I was in Scouts, just after I became a Life Scout, we got a new Scoutmaster. And this new Scoutmaster came up with the idea of "Scout bucks,"... they discovered they had been swindled by a poorly thought-out, poorly executed plan. So the good kids got bullied even more, and the troubled ones became more frustrated and angry with Scouting than ever.

So be careful! The idea of recognition and advancement is already built in to the very fabric of Scouting, and there's no need to go beyond the system that is already in place. Do Scouting right, and it becomes its own reward. The tale of the Unknown Scout is perhaps the greatest example of how we should serve - quietly, helpfully, and without reward or recognition - because we are Scouts, and we don't need, accept nor expect rewards for doing what we already know is right. That kind of service is the most fulfilling of all.

First, THANK YOU for the cautionary tale!  I suppose I should have solicited cautions, as well as ideas in my original post - I certainly do want to hear where people have experienced difficulties with trying to implement varieties of recognition schemes, and the variety of lopsided "foregone conclusion" outcome that you've just recounted is one of the many ways I've considered that a "physical rewards" system could go wrong.  I figure for every one that I've thought of, there are probably a dozen that I haven't, so the more people thinking about the pitfalls and helping me to see them, the better!

Second however, I will push back agains the assertion that there's no need to go beyond the system that's already in place.  As I mentioned in my original post, the system that's in place does not provide well-defined methods for recognition - some form of saying "thank you"/etc - in a timely fashion to optimize the reinforcement of behaviors into habits.  Moreover the data from surveying scouts indicates that _they_ aren't hearing much positive feedback.   Additionally, while the mantra "scouting should be its own reward" is nice, and I'd hope that most scouts eventually get there, it's quite clear that JimmyTenderFoot takes quite a long time to begin feeling like most of the Scoutly parts of Scouting are actually a reward.  As evidenced by EagleDad's experience with Tootsie Pops and litter around the campsite, giving JimmyTenderFoot a bit of an incentive to develop a scoutly habit like cleanliness (picking up litter), helps immensely with developing that habit.

In addition, Ad-hoc methods like "you, as scoutmaster, just say something nice", have failure modes that are similar to that of your cautionary tale.  There's only one of "you", and your eyes aren't on all the scouts all the time.  If we spread an "ad hoc" "just say something nice if you see something scoutly" across multiple people, there will be differences in what's perceived as Scoutly, differential rewards/nice-things said, and I anticipate similarly dissatisfied scouts who end up at the wrong end of a differential outcome for identical actions.   Because of this, I'd like to codify specific ideas/methods that people have found that work, and that are universally applicable without requiring an individual scoutmaster's discretionary judgement.

Finally, ideally, the system should be primarily scout-run/scout led.  I really like the "fireballs box" idea because it looks like it would work perfectly for this.  I would love to identify a half-dozen ideas of that nature, and possibly a few ideas for patrol-level ideas that can be hashed-out and armored against bad-outcome failure modes.

Will

 

[willray]

42 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

What you are talking about Competition. Competition is how troops have been intensifying Patrol Method and living the Scout Law since the beginning. That hasn't changed. What has changed is how scouts want to be rewarded for their success. Ribbons were very popular when I was a scout, but scouts today don't even like patrol flags. ...

The patrol-flag bit still mystifies me, but...  Exactly right on the competition, but traditional scout competitions revolve around scout skills (cooking, knots, etc), while this needs to revolve around Scout Values.    There's lots of literature on good skills-competitions, let's build some on how to do Values competitions well!

[willray]

47 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I'm off track. Whatever motivation you are looking for, look for reward in growth. The patrol leader who lost his cool the last campout needs another chance to lead the team to success. Loosing their cool under stressful situations is basically forgetting to be friendly, courteous and kind. How does he do that, well teach him to slow down the situation down, delegate more or remove the problem scout. Don't yell, simply ask for them to help or comply. Same goes with the scout who struggles with the request of the PL. That scout is not only not being friendly, courteous and kind, they are also not being trustworthy or loyal. Sometimes learning to serve the leader is harder than the leader learning to serve the team. 

Heh - I'm going to have to pick your brain for ideas on how to deal with some of this, probably in some other thread, so we don't dilute this one - we've got one patrol with a scout who is /really/ struggling with learning to be a helpful member of his patrol, and so far he has been, let's say resistant, to any attempts to motivate him in the right direction, whether from his patrol leader, SPL, or any of the adults...

[MattR]

Competitions are good for some things but a competition for doing the right thing? Competitions encourage scouts to figure out how to cut corners and be more efficient. People try to figure out how to use the rules to their advantage. That's where the phrase game the system comes from. Putting someone else's need before your own has nothing to do with this. I'd suggest not having any rules. Not a certain award. Not a fixed list of good things to do. Rather, get all of the adults involved. When they see a scout do something impressive, reward it. It could be a thank you. It could be addressing them Mr/Miss <last name>. It could be buying them an ice cream at the trading post. It could be giving them some candy. It could be nothing more than pulling them off to the side and saying they've grown a lot lately and you see it and appreciate it.

As @Eagledad said, it's about growth and not a specific activity. And every scout will grow differently. One scout being Courteous might be a cause for a huge celebration where for other scouts it might just be not much more than a nod. Think about it, it's hard to measure how good a person is so how can anyone define what the recognition should be? Besides, if someone knows they'll get a Jolly Rancher if they teach a scout how to start a fire, what happens when you run out of candy? They stop helping? If so, they've learned nothing. A bit of randomness is closer to real life.

Not only should all of the adults be involved, I'd suggest getting the scouts involved as well. Ask the PLC, or the older scouts, if there are other scouts that should be recognized. And encourage those scouts to do the recognition. Make it part of the culture of the troop.

[willray]

12 hours ago, MattR said:

Competitions are good for some things but a competition for doing the right thing? Competitions encourage scouts to figure out how to cut corners and be more efficient. People try to figure out how to use the rules to their advantage. That's where the phrase game the system comes from. Putting someone else's need before your own has nothing to do with this...

I agree that the idea of a competition for "doing the right thing" sounds weird.  However, "doing the right thing" is a skill that can be (and needs to be!) developed and honed, just like any other.  I would suggest that the reason that competitions for "doing the right thing" sound weird, is because it's so much easier to do competitions for simple skills, and so we gravitate towards taking the easy road and setting up competitions that don't require much thought.   To take that as a reason to avoid "doing the right thing" competitions doesn't sound too Scoutly to me.  The "doing the right thing" skills are far harder to learn than knot tying, and it doesn't seem too Helpful or Friendly to say "sure, we can help you plan competitions that will improve your knot tying, but for the harder stuff, you're on your own".

To be sure, there are always going to be those who "game the system".  And pretty much everyone knows who they are, and when they're doing it.  That's hardly a reason to not use competition as a method of encouraging people to improve their skills.

In fact, it's entirely possible that highly "gameable" competitions are the best way to do reinforce "doing the right thing" through competition.  They're excellent generators of situations where the participants get the opportunity to choose the harder, righter thing.

It's also entirely possible that the best way to reinforce "doing the right thing" through competition, is to embed more "doing the right thing" evaluation in traditional skills competitions.  You might say "but this is why we do skills competitions already", but when is the last time your troop's knot-tying or cooking competitions were judged based on the points of the scout law?  You could you know - the knot-tying scoring could be entirely based on whether or not the scouts help each-other.  The cooking competition could be judged based on how well the patrol works together on KP and how clean and neat the dishes and campsite are afterwards. ..But I bet you don't.   I bet you judge knot-tying competitions based on time, and cooking competitions based on some kind of holistic review where cleanliness is a component, but, where a clean campsite with a tasteless meal is never going to beat a tasty meal and some dirty pans.

Anyway - just because it's hard, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, and it seems worth discussing how to do it well.  If we can figure out some ideas and guidelines, my observations suggest that a lot of troops could benefit from a well-thought-out collection of strategies to help their scouts learn to develop better Scoutly habits.

12 hours ago, MattR said:

As @Eagledad said, it's about growth and not a specific activity. And every scout will grow differently. One scout being Courteous might be a cause for a huge celebration where for other scouts it might just be not much more than a nod. Think about it, it's hard to measure how good a person is so how can anyone define what the recognition should be? Besides, if someone knows they'll get a Jolly Rancher if they teach a scout how to start a fire, what happens when you run out of candy? They stop helping? If so, they've learned nothing. A bit of randomness is closer to real life.

I would argue that the fact that every scout will grow differently, is one of the primary reasons to have some well-thought-out and codified guidelines.  Not because there needs to be some universal threshold applied to every scout or every situation in every troop, but because it's blatantly obvious that not all scouters see and understand the differences between the scouts.  As @The Latin Scot pointed out, an uneven playing field can turn even the best-intentioned ideas into a minefield of misunderstanding and resentment.  Well-thought-out guidelines/best-practices need to help level the playing field, and raise the awareness of the diversity of paths through the Scouting experience.

At the same time, it's worth spending time thinking about how to structure competitions and rewards so that everyone is rewarded appropriately for where they are.  In a sense, I think I'm suggesting (and if you knew me in real life, you'd wonder if I was smoking something if words like this came out of my mouth) that these competitions probably should not have "losers".  It seems abhorrent to me to say "Meh, you're the 3rd most helpful scout, you get bupkis".   As such, in my troop's experiment, so far we've tried things like structuring inter-patrol "do the right thing" competitions such that the whole troop is rewarded for "doing the right thing" based on some scale of how they did overall, and the winning patrol gets to choose the specific reward for the troop.  I definitely would like to hear other ideas for alternative approaches to doing this all-positive-reinforcement variety of reward.

Regarding randomness, absolutely!  There is copious research demonstrating that consistent rewards are mentally processed as "purchases of behavior", and when you run out of jolly-ranchers, the behavior does in-fact stop, while occasional "random" rewards function much more to cement the behavior as habit, and the behavior is much more durable in the absence of reward.  Again, well-thought-out guidelines here would be really helpful for units that don't have embedded behavior psychologists, so that they can achieve the best outcomes with their scouts.

I should probably add - the guidelines should also probably suggest that any evaluation of Scoutly Reverence in such a context is right out.

Edited March 19, 2019 by willray

[willray]

I'd like to talk about this a bit:

Just now, willray said:

In fact, it's entirely possible that highly "gameable" competitions are the best way to do reinforce "doing the right thing" through competition.  They're excellent generators of situations where the participants get the opportunity to choose the harder, righter thing.

Does anyone have thoughts on the potential or value of "meta competitions", where the actual point isn't winning the competition, but rather is to make the right choices and avoid the non-scoutly gaming of the system that's possible?   Some of you will have experience with one specific, particularly ham-handed version of this idea.  It's clear that this can be done in a fashion that's blatant, painful, and gets old real fast, but I'm wondering if anyone has experience with, or ideas for versions that would be fresh and interesting, and would help the scouts get fresh insight into the choices that they make according to (or not according to) Scoutly values.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, as a horribly bad example, it would be fairly easy to develop a game that had a "trust based" component - for example you draw a card and then you record your card without anyone else being able to verify - and then the rules and cards are set up so that it's actually impossible to win.  An Honest scout will not fudge the results, and so will lose the game.  Anyone who wins, cheated.  This is a horrible idea because it specifically calls out and shames the ones who cheated.

It seems like there should be more clever solutions that produce more positive reinforcement and less negativity, but I don't have any experience with these, so I'm curious if anyone else does, how you use them, whether they're transparently obvious to the scouts, etc.

[Eagledad]

I don't know, at some point the scouts have to be left on their own to ponder the dreams of adventure. Adults inducing more structure can overwhelm the natural learning from the patrol method. 

Competition among boys is natural, so it's really more about the adults not getting in the way. Adults can and should encourage more opportunities of competition, but I found, more often than not,  that the adult suggestions didn't appeal to the scouts. 

Adults have to learn more and faster than the scouts just to keep up. Adults have learn how to work with the nature of youth this age. Like and older brother, adults have to blend guidance and mentoring in with the intuitive nature of the scout, not the self-serving desires of the adult. We have to remember that Scouting is game with a purpose. But purpose and game do require balance.

All that being said, for adults to learn what works, they have to try change. However, wisdom is the fruit of humility. I used to teach in adult leaders courses that I did things wrong more than I did right. But, we tried all the time, and a lot and that is why are program matured. Another way of saying game with a purpose is the 8 Methods are the game and the 3 Aims are the purpose. As we seek to enhance and magnify the purpose, let's remember that the game must stay in balance. 

In its idealistic design, if the scouts do their part with the 8 Methods, they will practice the values of scouting. Just doing the 8 Methods might be the adults biggest challenge.

How does the saying go, "The first rule of doing something is do no harm".

Barry