watchout, we are here

[ScoutNut]

Dug - Other than say that a BOR is simply busy work and you guys do it better than BSA, you have yet to tell us what EXACTLY goes on at your boy run BOR's.

 

If you disagree with the BSA's purpose of a BOR than what the heck is the point of your BOR's? What are the boys doing on your BOR's? What questions are they asking? What is expected of the scouts who are standing for the BOR's?

 

According to BSA, the purpose of every BOR from Scout to Eagle is the SAME. Why is that purpose, according to you & your Troop, busy work for some ranks & not for others?

 

Please elaborate.

 

 

 

[DugNevius]

The ranks of scout to first class are much different then Star to eagle. Those lower ranks are achived through basic scout and camping skills taught by the scouts themselves, building a foundation. The rank of star is a turning point, a rank achieved by the scout himself for which he must take the majority of the initiative to achieve it. The merit badges are his choice, contacting MB counsolers is up to him himself and most often done oustide meetings and trips, the responsabilities are his choice as well as he must obtain a leadership position to complete the requirments from Star and above. With the increase in comlexity in the ranks the BORs increase in complexity and deepth. The young men can properly evaluate and assess scouts from scout to 1st class and from there the adults take over. Our council is aware of our system and does not disapprove of it.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Dug,

 

Two words, Adult Association, 8 methods, not 7.

 

Your Council "doesn't disapprove" means that they have not approved what you are doing and that they are patiently waiting.

 

The Scouting program works and when a group strays too far, it is only a matter of time.

 

Most of us have dealt with units that can say, "I did it my way". I do not apologize for being BTB.

 

FB

 

[FScouter]

"Our council is aware of our system and does not disapprove of it."

 

Every council has a rogue unit or two. Sometimes they have to put up with 80% Scouting vs. nothing. No council would approve of your Board of Review practice.

 

By the way, is yours a "Quality Unit"?

[anarchist]

Dug,

 

The point seems to be missed...

One of the greatest reasons for a committee (or even a parent) operated BoR is to check troop progress and uncover potential problems...

 

Example one: Tenderfoot candidate is being bullied by a star scout...is he going to say something with that Star scout on his rank board???

 

Example two: Second Class candidate feels the Scout Master (or an Assistant) has been unfair and is slowing his progress down...He wants to be the youngest (yuck) Eagle in the council and the Scoutmasters son is sitting the board...again will the boy speak freely...?

 

Example three: Boys running the show are not giving the youngest boys the attention and support the feel they need or deserve and the SM is in the "High Adventure" mode where all the older boys are having a great time and the committee sees lots of 16-year-old 'smiley faces' but the younger scouts feel lost...are the individual Committee Members going to get the complete picture of the program by watching an activity...or even three activities???? The Scout Master is reporting lots of canoe trips and 15 mile hikes so all is well????

 

Example four: PLC is the planning board for the activities. A strong SPL plans lots of activities he wants and lets the younger patrol 'eat scraps' will the committee know this????

 

Example five: Patrol leader is brother of SPL. He is completely unfair in selecting duty roster jobs on boy always in getting K-P, clean-up, wood collection or latrine duty...

He wants fair treatment but the SPL ignors him and the Scout Master is indifferent...isn't the BoR his best chance to be listened too? Rather than having to appoach an adult on the side at an activity, in the BoR he has 3 or 4 adults who are not from the 'program side' and who are there primarily to hear his take on the troops 'health' and his satisfaction with the program...Honestly, which is the better way?

 

Example six: Three scouts on BoR hear a brave young lad tell them they are bullies, or lack even minimal skills in teaching or are simply boring jerks running an unfair program...are they going to address the scouts concern to the commitee??? Dug, lets be real here, ok.

 

Example seven: God Help us a boy is being abused by a Scouter... he is not outgoing, his parents 'can't communicate' with him and he goes into a BoR and the Scouters

son is on the board...or he seeks out another Scouter (individually-remember your previous reply?) The Scouter doesn't believe him...It happens you know? and the abuse is not reported...with three or four adults on the board He is more likely to at least get a hearing...don't you agree?

 

enough said, I do not think you are a 'rogue' unit, though you seem to take some pride in being mistaken for one. Unfortunately, I see your group as being stuck in a wrong course and too proud or (?) to really look deep at what you think you are accomplishing...sitting BoRs has little pactical value for the scouts sitting the board and it takes practical value away from the young men needing experience interacting with adults in a semi formal setting (read helps them in dealing with us strange (weird?) merit badge councilors who may not be members of the troop...

I wish you well and I hope the chip eventually falls off...

Yours in Scouting (YIS)

anarchist

 

[ScoutNut]

Dug - Here's another scenario for you :

 

Boys vote for the Patrol Leaders they hope will pick them to be in their Patrol. Sound familiar? One boy is small, shy, geeky & not very popular. He has tried to do everything he should. He has done whatever the "popular" Patrol Leader types ask him to do. He votes for who they tell him to. Still, he is the very LAST boy to be picked to be on a Patrol, any Patrol.

 

Now after months, & months of trying to please these boys. Of redoing requirements time & time again because these same boys are the ones who have the power to sign off on them & nothing he ever does is good enough for them. Now, finally, he has made it to a BOR. Who does he find facing him on this BOR, Dug? Impartial members of the committee, chartering org or community? Nope. He finds himself facing these very same boys who made him do all of the Troops scut work in the vain hope of getting picked for a Patrol. The very same boys who made it almost impossible for him to get anywhere near rank. How do you think this boy feels Dug? Do you think he will say a SINGLE word to these boys, or anyone else for that matter, that goes against party lines? Of course not. To do so would mean that he would trash ANY hope he had of ever fitting in, even the tiniest little bit.

 

Besides, they promised him that THIS time, This time, if he got the newly crossed over Webelos to vote for them for Patrol Leaders, they would not give him a hard time & would finally pass him on his BOR.

 

Does this sound like Scouting as Baden-Powell envisioned it? This is your "better" way to run a Troop?

 

On another forum you stated that as a youth in this Troop, you had been a Patrol Leader for 3 years, re-elected 6 times, picking the same Assistant and the same "core" of 2-3 scouts each time. 3 YEARS Dug. Explain to me how having the same 4-5 boys in a position of power for 3 YEARS teaches leadership to the other boys. Explain to me how having these same 4-5 boys in charge of signing off on rank requirements builds character. Explain to me how having these same 4-5 boys running BOR's is helping other boys gain "experience".

 

You say your Council does not "disapprove" of your methods. Interesting wording. I say it is more likely that they do not approve, but because your CO goes along with it & because no one, for whatever reason, has complained to loudly, they turn a blind eye.

 

Dug, considering how your Troop is being run, I would say that your Committee is right and has every reason to be concerned that this Troop had, or has the potential to, turn into "Lord of the Flies".

 

 

[DugNevius]

wow. Interesting responses. Im amazed at the little faith we have in the young men we are handling here. So many bad senerios, so pessimistic. Oppressive and abusive bullies with power. It's lLord of the flies. But we are forgetting that the leaders of the troop, the PL and SPL that are sitting on or BoRs have been democraticly elected by the members of the troop for six month terms. These are votes of confidence in leadership. The members of the PLC got there because they demonstrated leadership and fairness to the other scouts. Scout who were oppressive and abusive did not win elections and therefore are not in the position to abuse the power as stated in your many examples. This is something i observe quite often during our elections. Therefore, if a scout is elected for 3 years in a row, its because his peers find him fair and effective. When PL did not live up to the expectations of those that voted for him he is not relected. Its all checks and balances. In ScoutMasters conferences some of the questions always asked are "How is your PL treating you? What are your thoughts on the SPL and his staff, and what would you change in the program. And again, you are under the impression that most teens would rather open up to adults and authority figures more easily then they would their friends and peers, and this is an outlandish idea. And then to think they would open up to adults they know even less then their parents or the scoutmasters? Its all checks and balances. If the "small, shy and geeky" scout feels his patrol leader has been unfairly piling the "scut work" on him, he doesnt vote for that scout in a leadership position. If you dont think these young boys are aware of who is doing their job, who isnt, who is taking the brunt of the leadership, grunt work, and so on... you need to reinvest some faith in your boys. Just last week, in a conversation with a committe member who was car pooling several second class scouts to meetings he remarked on how interesting it was to overhear their car ride conversations about these very same things.

 

Democracy works. Im sure if you released your grip and had some trust in your scouts you will be amazed at the responsibilities they can handle.

 

as for the council, the scoutmaster and CC has had conversations with severel members who said simply, as long as we are having the scoutmasters conference there is nothing wrong with doing it our way.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The BSA has already put the Checks and Balances in place and your group has taken them out. Working with Scouts and other adults means that you do have faith in all of the others that you work with and not just a few. When a person works with many adults and Scouts and has faith in their work, it takes away the oppression and bullying that you speak of and want to label others with to defend your own method of Scouting.

 

FB

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Dug, doubtless your scouts know other scouts from other troops. Do your scouts ever ask why you do things so different from the other troops?

[DugNevius]

Old Grey- There are 4 other troops in this town and the neighboring one and so there are many scouts with friends in other troops and we have had a number of scouts since ive been involved that have left those to come to ours. The general concensus is the boys aer confused as to why scouts would want other systems of BoR and patrol selection and dont want to change. Several scouts have read this very debate in other forums and still like our system.

 

Fuzzybear- It still seems as though you have the opinion "give em a yard and they will take a mile."

[Eagledad]

HI All

 

I'm late on this one, but I agree with Dug in just about every thing he says except that they bend the rules too much. Other than that, you can search and find post where I've said basically the same things. Adult run BORs don't fit in a boy run program. They are basically intended for is quality control of the adults. I also agree with Dug that Scouts aren't likely to open up to adult strangers more than any other adults other than their parents. So why don't the adults review the adult parents. That is probably the most likely adults the boy will open up. At least the part where the SM's program is performing.

 

As for the scary examples some of you guys brought up, I am surprised by these worst case examples from adults who brag about programs with a great older scout program. Whey would great scouts be so bad at BORs? And lets just assume they do a bad job, just because the scouts run the BOR doesn't mean the adults aren't suppose to guide the scouts in their performance any less than the rest of the program. If the Patrol Leader did a really bad job, would you sugest stopping the Patrol Method? Your job is suppose to teach fairness and nobility to these young men through all the program. The BOR would be a great place for that.

 

The issue here is the question; is Dug's program doing the Scouts justise by completely ignoring the rules even if their change is better for the program? I'm one that beleives troops must be given some room to deliver the promise. But for me in this case, they are going too far. I would like to see a better approach to their concern so that the conversation doesn't lead to braking the rules, but instead the real value of a adult run BORs.

 

Good conversation guys

 

Barry

[OldGreyEagle]

So Dug, You and your troop are OK with teaching your scouts its ok to bend the rules as long as you know its right?

[DugNevius]

Lets not forget though that we DO have adults sit on BoRs from Star to eagle.

 

OldGray- I guess its a matter of whats more important to you, benifiting the scouts or upholding regualtions. If bending a rule helps scouts, if reward exceeds cost, is it wrong? Im sure we are all guilty of doing such things.

[anarchist]

Once again, (for the third time I think) Dug and now Eagle Dad...what is the purpose of a BoR? what does a Scout run BoR give any of the boys?

 

As to the examples scary or not-they were reasons for the program as BSA outlines, and your (Eagledad's) backhand slap at our (my?)'great' programs of older boys is unappreciated and unkind and I will not dignify with further comment.

 

Your position of boys not trusting strange adults is not founded in reality or practice...ask police phycologists who deal with battered and abused children...they the kids certainly are going to talk to a strange adult (who by the way in this case is an adult who is not strange but a regular figure ...committe member-remember) before talking to the abuser or in the abusers presence...

 

You have taken away (from the CO and the troop committee)a formal method for the troop committee to check on the health safety and progress of the program.

nuff said.

good scouting

[DugNevius]

and again i must point out that Adults sit on BOR from Star to eagle, we have Scoutmaster's conferences for those very purposes as well as what i stated earlier about evaluations with adults that are in effect BOR themselves in which scoutmasters and the CC sit and talk with scouts in leadership positions.