Camp question- GTSS and Youth Protection

[Proud Eagle]

I am currently working at a Boy Scout resident camp. Normally 18 is the dividing line for Boy Scout activities and facilities.

 

However, the staff at the camp is part of a Venturing crew chartered to the camp. (All staff members are required to join this crew when applying for employment. And yes, it is actually chartered to the camp, I have seen the actual charter.)

 

Now the Camp Director (one of our DEs) says that because we are a crew at a Boy Scout camp, the camp must have 3 sets of accomodations for those under 18, those over 18 but under 21, and for those over 21. Now the camp commisioner and the program director both think he is wrong. The only reference any of us could find indicated that a crew at a Boy Scout resident camp should follow Boy Scout guidelines for use of facilities.

 

The camp ranger was also asked about this, and he said he wasn't certain but that the health and safety manual was the only place he could think of that such a rule may be written.

 

When questioned about this the camp director simply replied that national made the rule and that if anyone had a problem with it they should take it up with them.

 

So, can anyone tell me if there is such a rule?

 

If so where can it be found?

 

Also, if such a rule exists, how are people to know that it supercedes the rules found in other manuals?

 

Since we are talking camp issues, there are a few others.

 

The main staff housing area contains youth and no adults. The nearest adult staff are at least a quarter mile away, is this a problem?

 

The camp staff were required to waive the right to collect unemployment insurance, is the allowed?

 

Also, my pay check says I am paid for 40 hours per week of work. Yet if that is true, my hourly rate is well below the current minimum wage. The cost of room and board is considered part of our compensation, yet in no place is the value of this compensation specified. It appears to me that could be a violation of minimum wage laws.

 

Further, employees were given blank contracts to sign and not given a copy of the contract to keep. The contract also required following the Staff Guide and Leaders Guide, documents not given to all staff members.

 

Finally, does anyone know where to find the requirements for a range officer for a BSA archery range? There is no mention of archery any place in the guide to safe scouting.

[wojauwe]

 

Have no clear answer on the YP rules.We do the triple age split at OA events though I don't know if it's a rule.My impression is that it's just a Lodge policy

to deal with a situation that no one is real clear on.

 

As to the wages for camp staff.My boys have explained to me that they are considered compensated Volunteers and thus not subject to minimum wage restrictions.

This works in Oregon but it may be different in other States.I've been told that

staff in California receive minimum wage.

It does seem though that your camp management is not playing straight.In 7 years my sons have been involved as camp staff, they have always been given a complete

contract and a copy.They were also given very clear written descriptions of

regulations they needed to follow.This information was also gone over months before camp in Staff orientation meeting.

That's how our council works.May be totally irelevent to you.

[Bob White]

As I understand it you will need three housing divisions. one for male youth 17-years and younger, one for male adults 18-years and older, one for females. That fact that they are Venturers is of no concern. That is only their membership of record. They are still participating in a Boy Scout Camp activity where 17 and younger are youth, and 18 and older are adults.

 

 

[wojauwe]

BW,

 

I beleive the break down,was connected to the different age of an adult in the 2 programs.This issue comes into play in the OA as well.

in the boy scouts 18 is adult but is youth until 21 in Venture and the OA.

So you need to segregrate the 18 and above from below 18.But in a Venture situation that 18,19 and 20 year old is a youth and thus needs to be seperate from

the 21 and above.It throws in another seperation factor.There is some debate as to how to deal with this.We just do the extra split at Lodge events to be on the safe side.

[Bob White]

The OA is still a Boy Scout Event as is Boy Scout Resident Camp. Even though the person may have a Venturing membership. In Boy Scouts the adult age is 18-years and up.

 

At the Camp the Venturers are not there as Venturers they are there as Staff at a Boy Scout Event, the Boy Scout Rules would apply.

 

If there are enough accomodations to separate 18-20 year olds as well then all the better, but I find nothing that requires that.

[wojauwe]

BW

 

That is one of the prime ways of looking at it.Do you know if the situation is addressed specifically in a written rule?

Working with Lodge leadership in planning things,

I get the impression that there is no such clearly written rule.Actually it seems that some times they go by the Boy scout split only.I think it's influenced by the chair of each events interpretation of situation.

[Bob White]

I do not think that either would be considered wrong as long as the effort is made to provide adequate supervision, respect for privacy, and protection. I would leave the decision to the leader of the event and follow in your personal behavior what you know to be good YP practices.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[wojauwe]

Yea that's pretty much how I feel about it.It would be nice if

there was clearly stated policy so that planning commitees wouldn't be wasting time arguing about what to do every time the situation comes up.

But yea,respect for the spirit of YP should be the guide.

[Bob White]

It is difficult to write policies that cover every conceivable situation. But I think we agree that when you read the G2SS what it wants is to create privacy between adult and youth members and to have separate facilities for females. I am confident that if you follow that purpose you will be fine. Have a great time at camp.

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[FScouter]

"It would be nice if there was clearly stated policy so that planning commitees wouldn't be wasting time arguing about what to do every time the situation comes up. "

 

There are clearly written policies for things that are policies. In other words you will never find a written policy that covers a situation for which there is no policy.

 

The G2SS contains the separate accomodations policy. If someone on the planning committee is arguing that there is additional policy "somewhere", assign that person to get a written copy of the policy he wants to see, and report back.

 

In the absence of a written policy, there is no "policy". That means that if it ain't written, it ain't a policy. Rumors and "I heard it somewhere" do not constitute policy.

 

 

[wojauwe]

FScouter

That was very helpfull of you to find a sentance you could take out of context to point out what an idiot I am.

I'm glad things are so clear in your world.the people that are

deabating this issue are trying to deal with 2 different groups

with diferent breakdowns of age for YP.There are written policies for each of these programs.

The 18 seperation definitely needs to take precedence when both programs are involved.There are just some who feel they need to take the extra step to cover both sets of rules.They are only trying to do what's right and Before you chimed in it

seems the consensus was to follow the Boy scout break down and if possible throw in the extra split,to sooth other programs concerns.

Thanks for putting me in my place.

[NWScouter]

There is another document that governs BSA camps. It is National Camp Standards. It covers a lot more ground than G2SS, in fact the last time I saw it was a three inch binder very full. The only people I have ever see have it are camp directors and maybe program directors.

For example it goes into how warm the water the swim beach needs to be and how to set up a high cope course and the requirements for its equipment for two examples. I do not have access to it right as Im not at camp. It is the bible that the camp directors need to follow or their camp does not get the BSA stamp of approval. Look for the pendent that camps display, it shows that they have been inspected and passed.

 

The range rules are in the standrads.

 

Other rules may be imposed by the state.

 

The pay issues are matters of state law and can be different in each state. At our camp the dinning hall staff have to paid minimum wage and have to have strict time keeping. The rest of the staff is covered under some volunteer rule under the state laws. The workman comp rule in our state covers the staff but again that is a state law and can differ.

If you are not getting a copy of the contract and the rules you must operate by if not against the law, is just bad form.

 

[FScouter]

Wojaue -

It honestly was not my intention to make anyone feel like an idiot. Your statement about the committee arguing back and forth is a pet peeve of mine. Sometimes a discussion develops about the official policy regarding a topic. For example person "A" states that the policy is for 2-deep leadership, and supports it with the written document, such as the G2SS book. Person "B" argues back that there is another policy that requires 3-deep leadership which trumps the G2SS. He can't produce the source, has no backup, and says something like "it's official!". My challege to person "B" would be to produce the written source, otherwise we're only obligated to follow the policy that we have in the G2SS. That usually ends the arguing.

 

In his initial post Proud Eagle quoted his camp director as arguing that "national made the rule and that if anyone had a problem with it they should take it up with them." I find that to be an arrogant attitude.

 

In your case with the OA, there certainly is nothing wrong with providing separate facilities for 3 age groups. It just doesn't seem like something that needs to be argued about.

 

Again, I apologize for offending you.

 

[wojauwe]

FScouter

Sorry if I was kind of pissy.But the copying of things out of context to focus a response is a pet peeve of mine.

I really was not trying to answer the full scope of Proud Eagle's

complaints.Was just addressing the 2 different adult age things.

The complaint I was making about the event commitees spending time on the issue was a minor point and the people I was talking about were honestly trying to do the right thing.They weren't so much argueing as trying to figure out the logistics.

I agree with you though PE's camp mangement seemed to be a little out of line with the approach they have taken with the

staff.

 

 

[ScouterPaul]

Proud Eagle

 

I'm going to make a couple of assumptions. The camp that you are referring to is Camp Crooked Creek and the DE in question would be from the Seneca District. If this is correct have these accomadation requirements been in effect since the start of Summer Camp or were they changed during the third week after Crooked Creek went through the National Camp Inspection during the second week?

 

With all due respect, I have worked with the DE for over 4 years and have found him to be quite helpfull and usually correct on his knowledge of the program and the rules and requlations. Additionally, the Commisioner (sp?) at least during our week at camp blatantly overrode decisions of both the Camp and Program Director.

 

As in past years the staff at this camp was extremely competent, helpfull and a joy to work with.