Female youth meeting with District Eagle Chair

[SSScout]

Here go us again.  Local tradition, regs etc.

Here in SSScout District, the nascent Eagle candidate usually has his project and records reviewed by somebody in his Troop (Scoutson was reviewed by the Troop Committee!)  and then on to the District Eagle Coordinator (we have four officially, schedule with any),  and when everybody is happy, the project is attended to, approved by the Benefactor, and then back to the Eagle Coordinator who schedules the EboR.   The EBoRs are regularly scheduled twice a month, in bunches.  Many Scouts, with their SM (or ASMs) and a parent or two,  come out to the site.  The Eagle Coordinator (usually the "designee") chairs the EBoR, and two or three "volunteers" (the attendant parents !)  are "deputized" for the duty.  Might have four or five  EBoR in an evening.... 

 

[ValleyBoy]

14 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

The requirement for female leadership when female youth are present is universal, it covers all scouting activities not just unit activities. "A registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over must be present for any activity involving female youth."

Let me ask a question.  Is the unit in compliance if the registered adult female leader was in the adult campsite with no youth in that campsite and 2 registered adult male leaders were in the youth campsite over 100 yards away out of sight of the adult campsite instructing a scouting skill. If this is a violation of YP there would be YP violations at every council and district activities such as camporees and summer camp where a registered adult female was not present each camporee event or each merit badge class that had a female youth taking part in the event or class.  

 

[qwazse]

I think there needs to be some acceptance that Eagle projects involve lots of opportunities for one-on-one contact with folks not registered in the BSA. Contact with a district representative while the scout's parent is nearby should be the least of our worries.

[shortridge]

1 hour ago, ValleyBoy said:

Let me ask a question.  Is the unit in compliance if the registered adult female leader was in the adult campsite with no youth in that campsite and 2 registered adult male leaders were in the youth campsite over 100 yards away out of sight of the adult campsite instructing a scouting skill. If this is a violation of YP there would be YP violations at every council and district activities such as camporees and summer camp where a registered adult female was not present each camporee event or each merit badge class that had a female youth taking part in the event or class.  

 

The ACTIVITY is the event itself - the summer camp, the camporee, the backpacking trip, the merit badge “college.” The activity is not the program session, the day hike, or the class. As long as we avoid one-on-one contact, we’re fine.

 

We do not need need a female registered leader 21+ sitting in every summer camp program session with a female Scout. Think of it this way: We don’t need a male registered leader 21+ present, so why should female Scouts require special babysitting and chaperoning? If that were the case, every female troop would have to have one female leader for every Scout attend camp just to make sure they can attend sessions. That is patently ridiculous.

 

EDIT: So very sorry about the giant font! I’m really not trying to yell!

Edited February 22, 2019 by shortridge

[ValleyBoy]

I feel the same way as you do Shortridge. Do we tell a 16 year old scout that has drivers license that they can not drive there self to a merit badge university because the unit cannot supply 2 deep leadership to the event and there parents have to be at work.  No we do not.  I sure do not want  to be the one to tell the scout he cannot attend

[shortridge]

7 hours ago, ValleyBoy said:

Do we tell a 16 year old scout that has drivers license that they can not drive there self to a merit badge university because the unit cannot supply 2 deep leadership to the event and there parents have to be at work.

I think this is a separate issue, however. A unit doesn’t have to supply two-deep leadership for a broader activity like an MBU that allows individual Scout registration. (See also: den chief training, OA events.) So that doesn’t affect your 16yo Scout.

To be open to female Scouts, the event organizers would just have to make sure there is an adult female 21+ registered leader present and all the other YP rules are being followed.

[MikeS72]

12 hours ago, shortridge said:

I think this is a separate issue, however. A unit doesn’t have to supply two-deep leadership for a broader activity like an MBU that allows individual Scout registration. (See also: den chief training, OA events.) So that doesn’t affect your 16yo Scout.

To be open to female Scouts, the event organizers would just have to make sure there is an adult female 21+ registered leader present and all the other YP rules are being followed.

Amazed at times how many scouters do not fully understand the concept of 2 deep leadership.  We had a parent show up at 10pm last month during our chapter ordeal (one of 3 chapters at the camp that weekend) because the SM had told him that they only had one adult there from the troop and had to have 2 deep leadership.  Between the 3 chapters, along with lodge advisors, there were easily 20 or more adults, not to mention the adults going through ordeal.  Imagine how unwieldy things like ordeals and such would become if every scout had to have 2 adults from his troop present. 

[scoutldr]

And "2 deep leadership" is not the same as "no one on one contact".

[ParkMan]

On 2/22/2019 at 12:13 PM, ValleyBoy said:

Let me ask a question.  Is the unit in compliance if the registered adult female leader was in the adult campsite with no youth in that campsite and 2 registered adult male leaders were in the youth campsite over 100 yards away out of sight of the adult campsite instructing a scouting skill. If this is a violation of YP there would be YP violations at every council and district activities such as camporees and summer camp where a registered adult female was not present each camporee event or each merit badge class that had a female youth taking part in the event or class.  

 

Based on my understand - yes, the unit would be in compliance.

However, I tihnk you have to look at why the BSA made this YPT rule.  In essence, YPT rules exist for two main purposes 1) protect youth from situations where abuse is more likely to occur, & 2) protect adult volunteers from being in situations which are more likely to lead to accusations of abuse.  I know there is a third reason - to protect the BSA in lawsuits, but for the sake of discussion, let's not focus on that at this time.  I expect that the BSA leadership felt that situations with a female youth was alone with two adult males was a scenario where there was enough possibility of abuse or allegations of abuse that they created this rule.

Imagine a scenario where a female adult leader is on premises but out of sight and two adult male leaders are alone with a single female youth.  My understanding is that this would meet the YPT requirements.  Yet, it doesn't do anything to minimize the possibilty or abuse or abuse allegations over the original rules.

This is where I think that the BSA YPT rules are inherently unwiedly.  The BSA would have been better taking a more progressive stand by staying with their original two-deep rules or by taking an approach where no individiual youth of a one gender can be alone with one or more adults of a different gender.  i.e., two youth females and two adult males - OK.  one youth female, one adult female, one adult male - OK.  one youth female, one youth male, one adult female, one adult male - OK.  one youth male, two adult females - not OK.  etc.
 

[SR540Beaver]

Our districts have two Eagle Board of Reviews.  One is to get the project approved and the other is the final where they earn Eagle.  These BOR's are held once a month and each BOR has at least 3 adults on the board.  We may have 4 to 5 boards running with 3 adults each depending on how many Scouts scheduled for a BOR.  The District Eagle Chair plays traffic cop in scheduling the monthly date, scheduling the Scouts and recruiting the number of boards and adults needed per month.  They also check to make sure all the T's are crossed and I's dotted on signatures, reference letters, etc.  The Eagle Chair doesn't actually sit on any boards.

[awanatech]

8 hours ago, SR540Beaver said:

Our districts have two Eagle Board of Reviews.  One is to get the project approved and the other is the final where they earn Eagle.  These BOR's are held once a month and each BOR has at least 3 adults on the board.  We may have 4 to 5 boards running with 3 adults each depending on how many Scouts scheduled for a BOR.  The District Eagle Chair plays traffic cop in scheduling the monthly date, scheduling the Scouts and recruiting the number of boards and adults needed per month.  They also check to make sure all the T's are crossed and I's dotted on signatures, reference letters, etc.  The Eagle Chair doesn't actually sit on any boards.

And how many BOR adults are registered, female leaders that are at least 21 years of age or older?  That sounds similar to how our District runs the Eagle Boards of Review, and we usually have at least 2-3 suitable female leaders that are at the Eagle Boards.  However, we only have a BOR when the actually sit with the Board after all of the requirements have been met.  The initial meeting where they get their project approved and signed is not a BOR, but rather only the Scout (with a parent present) meeting with our District Eagle Chair to review and sign the project. 

[Mom2Scout]

This has come up in our linked troops.  I was advised by our CC that the guidance from U of Scouting is that a female must be present rule, when in a building, means that they are literally in the building and available.  Kind of a line of sight thing.  My concern came from an event both troops worked at, but that at the end when it was clean up (service hours to organization), a female scout happened to show up to pick up her brothers and helped out.  That meant the 3 adults that were there for the boys now meant that it was 3 adults for both troops and I felt like if a female scout was to be present, we should have had separate adult leadership for the troops (even though it was one lone scout).  Since a different female scout had participated earlier in the day, a female leader was on hand throughout the day.  But had we not had a female there.... would she have needed to not participate?

Therefore, if I were to meet with scouts at the library in a room, just leave the door open, shades undrawn, and another scout leader (who typically is at the library the same time I am for this particular merit badge I'm offering), can just circulate through the room and boom, I am two deep.  And I have just male scouts right now for this merit badge.  This guidance provided at U of Scouting is not a written policy.

But yes, as I read the requirements myself, it sounds like if you had a male merit badge counselor for 2 female scouts, both parents would have to stay if one of them wasn't a female, registered leader.

I got the impression that the rules were different in the wide outdoors... but yes, a firm policy and not a make-it-up-as-you-go policy would be nice!

[ParkMan]

Hi @Mom2Scout,

I think that's just their interpretation.  It seems like a more protective interpretation of the actual text.

Quote

Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. There must be a registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over in every unit serving females. A registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over must be present for any activity involving female youth.

The text doesn't say anything about line of sight - just that they need to be present at the activity.