Youth Protection Policy Does Not Prohibit Retaliation

[Eagle94-A1]

13 hours ago, PARENTinSCOUT said:

... A letter with lots of contact info that was removed .....

This letter is so much BS and zzzzzzzz should know better. He was a SE in a council in which his immediate predecessor did retaliate against those who questioned him. One district level volunteer was placed in the Ineligible Volunteer Files, not for any YP violation, but because he questioned the SE.

Zzzzzzzz know it happens.

Edited July 24, 2020 by MattR
removing emails, names, contacts

[David CO]

59 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

One district level volunteer was placed in the Ineligible Volunteer Files, not for any YP violation, but because he questioned the SE.

This was a big problem in BSA.  Executives were using the YP policy as an excuse to purge their councils of any opposition.  This is one of the reasons I would be opposed to having a non-retaliation policy that applies to unit scouters.  It would give SE's one more tool to silence and remove unit scouters.

I often wonder if national opposed the public disclosure of the ineligibility files because it would reveal the extent of child molestation in scouting.  They might have opposed disclosure because they didn't want anyone to know how many good unit scouters have been placed in the ineligible file simply because they voiced dissent in the council.  My guess is there are more good scouters in the ineligible file than bad ones.

I have no objection to those who advocate for non-retaliation policies within their Chartered Organizations. This should be a local issue.

Edited July 24, 2020 by David CO

[elitts]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

This was a big problem in BSA.  Executives were using the YP policy as an excuse to purge their councils of any opposition.  This is one of the reasons I would be opposed to having a non-retaliation policy that applies to unit scouters.  It would give SE's one more tool to silence and remove unit scouters.

I often wonder if national opposed the public disclosure of the ineligibility files because it would reveal the extent of child molestation in scouting.  They might have opposed disclosure because they didn't want anyone to know how many good unit scouters have been placed in the ineligible file simply because they voiced dissent in the council.  My guess is there are more good scouters in the ineligible file than bad ones.

I have no objection to those who advocate for non-retaliation policies within their Chartered Organizations. This should be a local issue.

It's not very often I agree with David, but I think this comment is on the money.  I can't say that I have much experience with council level political infighting, but I've certainly seen it in plenty of other organizations.  While retaliation for YP reporting certainly isn't something that should be tolerated, giving organization leaders with such closely held inner workings (and an absence of effective oversight) as a local council a simple "one button push" method of ejecting someone is always risky and easy to abuse.  The methods of retaliation are already considered violations of the "Scouter Code of Conduct" under item #5:

Quote

 

5.  I will respect and abide by the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, BSA policies, and BSA-provided training, including but not limited to those relating to:

• Unauthorized fundraising activities
• Advocacy on social and political issues, including prohibited use of the BSA uniform and brand
• Bullying, hazing, harassment, and unlawful discrimination of any kind

 

If someone is being retaliated against, this provides sufficient justification for that person's removal.  There isn't any need to add additional (more highly charged) language that says essentially the same thing.

[MattR]

Just to let everyone know, I removed emails, phone numbers and names from that letter. Posting that type of info on a public forum is a bad idea.

[Eagle94-A1]

15 minutes ago, MattR said:

Just to let everyone know, I removed emails, phone numbers and names from that letter. Posting that type of info on a public forum is a bad idea.

Would you mind editing my post too? Change the name I used to zzzzz. 

[PARENTinSCOUT]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Just to let everyone know, I removed emails, phone numbers and names from that letter. Posting that type of info on a public forum is a bad idea.

Mattr should remove info deemed necessary for privacy. I posted the entirety of the email to show it's authentic from the BSA and to make the point that the lack of a nonretaliation policy in YPP is deliberate and not a simple omission.

My point in adding nonretaliation language to YPP is not to change how the National or local Councils run themselves, but to buttress the seriousness of YPP in scouting.

First, nonretaliation is community standard. Everywhere I looked among youth service organizations, explicit requirement for reporting always go with confidentiality and non retaliation guarantee. 

Second, if nonretaliation is community standard and even the BSA has it with employees, why not communicate it to the most vulnerable population which is also the sole reason for BSA's existence, the children? 

Wouldn't a few words about prohibition of retaliation in YPP training make the whole policy more credible and authentic and probably translate to better outcome and implementation?

Instead of thinking nonretaliation will just add more fuel to the fire fomented by petty and vindictive SMs, we should ask how this idea support the scout laws of honesty and trustworthiness to the scouts. It's not redundant to the scout laws but a demonstration of commitment by adults to the laws. After all, retaliation in abuse prevention and reporting is just as destructive and potentially costly as acts of abuse themselves.

 

 

[MattR]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Would you mind editing my post too? Change the name I used to zzzzz. 

Done. Thanks for the catch.

[CommishJulian]

On 7/23/2020 at 7:38 PM, qwazse said:

I am afraid that your optimism is misplaced.

ALL of us here have this problem qwazse!  That's why we're STILL in Scouting.

All jokes aside, reading the following posts actually caused me to tear up for a sec.  Fighting for democracy in a private club has been awful, many times. 

I have huge respect for this site, and I thank you all for being honest, informative, knowledgeable, and passionate.  It feels good to be chatting with like dedicated individuals.

I have found that kindness sells in Scouting. People stick around where they feel welcomed, and helpful.  On the flip side, bad scouters have perfected gentrification; driving out their opposition. -Like yelling at new parents will somehow grow scouting?  Collectively, we all can piece together what's wrong with the culture of the BSA just through these threads alone.  The hard choice is whether to be difficult back at the rule violators, or not.  

For me it's easy.  The elitists have driven our District into the ground, so there's hardly nothing left.  I, as a lone member, am making my own "district" to support the few packs that are left.  Two board members, a chair, and a secretary not does a district make.  -No matter how much money their employers donate.    -I should really document my efforts.

[PARENTinSCOUT]

On 7/25/2020 at 11:32 AM, CommishJulian said:

.  I, as a lone member, am making my own "district" to support the few packs that are left.

I applaud your spirit, because that by itself is what to me scouting is all about. Scouting is real and most impactful when the going gets tough and principles are all but lost.

I believe your hard work will leave a lasting legacy and rich rewards. May the Scout force be with you, CommishJulian!

 

 

 

 

[CommishJulian]

That is possibly the nicest thing a fellow scouter has ever said to me.  Forgive me if I print that and hang it on my wall.

The DIY district thing is holding steady.  I'm in the midst of sending out emails to the last known Packs and asking them if they need some positive energy. 

I've got one totally new interactive/virtual/distance/Zoom activity figured out.  If I can some up with three more I can host my very own carnival.  And host it for FREE.  I am almost done working out the bugs of a virtual, open invitation, pinewood derby event.  Basically, if you've ever made a car, we can re-race it, again, for FREE.  

The real District folks say I am bad for scouting (mainly because of my FREE fetish), but man do parents and their kids seem to love me. 

Since I'm being totally honest here, I'll add that I am a recovering addict... I have a 1999 Delta 92" band saw made in the USA.  With it, I can cut out a PWD car in under 60 seconds with the new blade!  I have two sewing machines; one does embroidery for personalizing bags and gifts, while the other is an old school Singer that will sew a patch onto any shirt or jacket.  I have 3 PWD tracks; 2, 3 and 4 lane.  Laptop with PWD software installed and an old school serial port (none of that wonky USB to serial junk).  My custom space derby rig adjusts to fit any two adjacent posts.  A rain-gutter regatta rig.  Digital projector, 40" flat panel display and a portable bridge for Arrow of Light presentations. ... Okay maybe I'm not "recovering" after all, but what a fun addiction to have right?  Oh and a monster Ford 4x4 to carry it all!  

[PARENTinSCOUT]

CommishJulian, you are a scouter on fire!

When I had to explain to little cub scouts Duty to God, I honestly told them my view that it's duty to your conscience because that's where God resides. This works because kids don't know what God is, and neither many adults, but they know what conscience and right vs wrong is.

For older scouts I explain further that it's also the duty to discover the special meanings in life and the gift of joy. That is finding the wonders of God.

I wish I could model that for the kids rather than just mere words.

And here is an adult Scouter, CommishJulian going all out to bring all of your passion, meanings and joy to the kids, which to me is no less than a perfect expression of Duty to God.

I am serious about this. And with the many dark issues surrounding scouting and in our world today,  I can't think of anything better to give kids hope than them having a blast at your PWD.

Nice going!

 

[MattR]

10 hours ago, CommishJulian said:

The real District folks say I am bad for scouting (mainly because of my FREE fetish), but man do parents and their kids seem to love me. 

Sounds familiar. I got in trouble trying to make camporees cost neutral, i.e., charge the scouts no more than what it costs.

10 hours ago, CommishJulian said:

I have a 1999 Delta 92" band saw

All of the rest sounds wonderful, but this I have to ask about. I thought a band saw size was the largest piece of wood that can go through it, height wise. So a 92" band saw could easily cut a full sized car. Or is this the length of the band?

Anyway, keep having fun. That's what rubs off on the scouts.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Sounds familiar. I got in trouble trying to make camporees cost neutral, i.e., charge the scouts no more than what it costs.

We have been told, and I do agree to an extent, to budget 10% of actual cost for emergencies/last minute unexpected costs. Last minute things do come up. We will go into it if needed, and it gets council off our back.

Until you have major emergency/last minute unexpected costs.

Because of our DE, I had to not only use all of the emergency funds, but I went into the red for an event I was running. First he didn't order the patch numbers I requested, and a second order had to be done. if he would have ordered what I wanted, the price per patch dropped, AND he would not have to pay shipping twice. So the costs were significantly higher than budgeted. Worse part is I got the patches 6-8 months AFTER the event. Second, he didn't order all of the custom supplies I needed, and didn't tell me about it until the last minute. So I was making calls to find the stuff I needed, and having to pay a premium to get it made in time for the event. So those budgeted items cost twice as much as planned. The last thing he did was put a third event at the camp the same weekend as mine. Neither I nor the 2nd events chair wanted the 3rd event as A) it would take up space needed for the first 2 events and B) it was so extremely poorly advertised that when I contacted the office about the event being on the calendar, no one knew about it and I told them to take it off the calendar AND told my Cub Scout folks it was a misprint in the calendar as the camporee was scheduled for that weekend at the location. A week before my event, I sas told very firmly the Cub Scout event would be going on despite both event chairmen saying there was no room for the event.. So I had to go and buy a bunch of supplies the day of the event to mark out parking areas for Cub Scouts and the camporee/ training folks, Signs to designate Cub Scout and Scout areas of the camp, create an off limits area around one campsite a troop would be using that was smack dab in the middle of the Cub Scout event that I could not move, etc. Ironic part of the Cub event was only 4 people showed up because of the poor advertising, and 2 were there with the Scouts. 

[MattR]

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

We have been told, and I do agree to an extent, to budget 10% of actual cost for emergencies/last minute unexpected costs. Last minute things do come up.

Sure they do, but if on those other events you ran at a profit, why not just say the net of all the events has to balance out? We asked for that and, well, that's when things got ugly.

I like @CommishJulian's approach of just doing it on your own.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Sure they do, but if on those other events you ran at a profit, why not just say the net of all the events has to balance out? We asked for that and, well, that's when things got ugly.

I like @CommishJulian's approach of just doing it on your own.

Trust me, I love revenue neutral. When I do training, that is my goal.

Part of my problem is that I took over events that were going in the red every year. And I don't mean a few dollars, but hundreds of dollars. I am surprised the person who was in charge remained in the position as long as they did because they always went over budget. I found out other events were subsidizing ours.