Its Me Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 State and federal attorneys are seeking to recover $14 million from the Great Salt Lake Council of the Boy Scouts of America in connection with a forest fire that scorched more than 14,000 acres in the Uinta Mountains. The U.S. Attorney's Office and Utah Attorney General's Office filed separate lawsuits Tuesday, which allege a group of Boy Scouts caused the East Fork Fire in June 2002 after failing to take proper fire precautions. The suits, which give one side of a legal argument, are seeking to cover the cost of fighting the fire and rehabilitating the land. Utah law requires those responsible for starting a wildfire to pay the cost of extinguishing it. Kay Godfrey, information officer for the Great Salt Lake Council, said Tuesday afternoon he had not seen either suit and had no immediate comment. The lawsuits claim a group of about 20 Scouts did not extinguish a campfire at the East Fork of the Bear Scout Reservation summer camp facility in Summit County when they broke camp on the morning of June 28, 2002, allegedly causing a wildfire that burned state, federal and private land. The suits also claim the Boy Scouts breached their state lease for the land by violating a fire restriction order. The lease states GLSC-BSA is liable for any fire-suppression damages, the suits said. Melodie Rydalch, spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney's Office, said the suits were a result of failed negotiation with the Boy Scouts.< "We felt like we have been very patient in trying to work with them and negotiate with them," Rydalch said. "If we don't recover it, the taxpayer is left footing the bill." The federal suit, filed in U.S. District Court in Salt Lake City, seeks to recover $13,344,320 for firefighting and rehabilitation. The state suit, filed in Summit County, asks for $606,424 in firefighting expenses. The Scouts were camping to fulfill an overnight camping requirement for a wilderness survival merit badge program. A fire-restriction order, prohibiting all open fires except in designated facilities, was in effect at the time. According to the suits, the Scouts "started multiple fires in the ignition area. Because the wilderness survival campout had to be conducted away from improved campgrounds in a wilderness area, the fires were started outside improved fire facilities in violation of the fire-restriction order." The suits allege the 15-year-old counselors who supervised the younger Scouts were aware of the burn restriction but allowed the fires to be built, then left the Scouts and fires unattended overnight. The suits claim the forest fire was spotted about 1:30 p.m. on June 28, after the Scouts had left the area. http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595074142,00.html Way too harsh in my opinion. It was an accident by under supervised 15 year olds. If they had been just a bunch of neighborhood kids or a small church group they would not have been hit with a $14 million suit. (This message has been edited by Its Me) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 If it was the scouts who started the fire then they were in violation of the law and their contract. They can expect to lose. Regardless of the 15 year old supervision at some level there was an adult who should have known what was going on and what the rules were. Scout lead does not mean adults abandoned. My only question is was this a council or unit event, the article does not say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 At our summer camp, where many youth take the Wilderness Survival MB, the MB counselors are indeed 15 - 20 yr. old "boys" but no overnighter is allowed without adult ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Its Me Posted June 30, 2004 Author Share Posted June 30, 2004 Bob, why would it matter if it were a council event or a unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Do the crime pay the fine! If it was the Scout's fault! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Units are the responsibility of the charter organizations that ownthem, they do not belong to the council. If this were a district or council event then the council would be exposed to liability for the loss. However if this was a unit event then the council is not a culpable party. The charter organization and the registered adults would be exposed to the loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMT376Richmond KY Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 acco40 I know what you mean by trashy Scouts. Here in my area I have seen some very trashy Scouts. It seems that alot of Troops are not impacting stweardship of the environment much. We constantly are finding trash at camporees and at summer camp last week the place was trashed with stuff from the trading post. The Troop sharing our campsite wasn't very good at cleaning the place up. They left the night prior and didn't do a trash walk down. When I was a Scout MR. Woods our SM would rip you a new one if you droped trash or even left trash in camp and didn't pick it up. I'm starting to believe that many SM's are gaffing off leave no trace. The leaders are as much to blame as the Scouts in this one for not properly teaching fire safety and when to use a fire or camp stove. This would be a good teaching tool as this is a Second class requirement. The summer camp and Scouts should have been aware of the fire risks and not had a fire. However, I was at a family camp out once when I was Cubmaster with a high fire risk even too high for a burn barrell and when I wouldn't let the boys build a fire a high falutin (SP) mother was quite upset that we were not having a fire. When I told her the risk was too high she said "so they should have a fire". Doo! She didn't get it as I have found many, now I don't mean to tick anyone off her, "yuppies" just plain don't care or don't and never will get it. OK off soap box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScouterPaul Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 This will be an interesting story to follow. On the trashy issue I agree. Richmond - Were you at Crooked Creek 6/20 - 6/26? If so what camp site? We were there in camp site #3. Great week with only a couple of partials. On the policing the campsite area the staff member who checked us out did so before were had policed the area. He said that it looked good to him and signed off. I replied it's not good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMT376Richmond KY Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Scouter Paul No we were at McKee in Central KY. We policed daily as we went out to the flag raising ceremony. We had a great trip for the Troop my son completed FC, one new TF, and lots of MB's only two MB's received partials. Fishing wasn't IMHO taught well since 4 boys came back with the same 4 partials. Rained only twice once Monday night and again Friday noon-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Bob White, OK but now I'm wondering why we are required to get a tour permit if liability is limited to the CO and leaders. Please clarify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 If you want the liability umbrella to be in effect you need to file a tour permit and abide by the G2SS and all laws pertaining to the event. The permit does many things, first it forces a unit to think through some details it might otherwise miss, it files a plan with council and or regional as to where you are and what you are doing, it reminds the tour leader of their responsibilities. But it doesn't make the BSA or the local council liable for a group or individuals bad decisions or behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 One of the purposes of a tour permit is so the council can review your tour plan to see if you have enough leaders, properly trained, drivers with auto insurance, and to see if your plan might violate G2SS rules. The idea is to avoid potential probems before they the event takes place, regardless of what entity may or may not be found liable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 I'm wondering under what circumstances the liability umbrella applies? If an accident on an outing occurs, resulting in damage to property, it sounds like even with a tour permit the CO and leaders would solely be liable if the outing is merely a unit outing. No umbrella? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 If you followed the rules of the BSA your liability protection would be intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 The liability umbrella covers unit activities assuming you follow the rules. However, if you violate G2SS rules you may find that BSA will not defend you and your chartered org. You may find yourself personally liable. Filing a permit is one of the rules and if you don't have one when an accident occurs, you'll find yourself on the hotseat. Another aspect is that the favorable liability insurance premium rates that BSA has negotiated with its carriers is predicated on BSA having good G2SS policies, and on units following the rules. If too many units violate the rules, or have problems resulting from not following the rules, claims may get denied, and rates will jump. Ultimately, insurance claims are paid by the policy holders through higher rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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