"Pencil Whipping" Requirements

[Eagledad]

2 minutes ago, shortridge said:

No, we’re talking about all the new troops for girls who are motivated to move quickly through the advancement process and whom you are trying to gatekeep by raising questions about their leaders’ experience.

You have no idea what any of these new troops is doing. You have no idea about the experience of their leaders. You have no idea about the experience of their Scouts.

Many of these girls are new Scouts but not new to Scouting or the outdoors or adventure. A Venturer and camp staff member who has run a first-year camper program at Boy Scout resident camp doesn’t need to learn how to set up a tent or start a fire or fish or make a duty roster. They will be racing through the requirements because they can do them with both hands tying one-handed bowlines behind their back.

Does your post even make sense? Are all the girls 15 years old? Are there no 11 year olds?

Inexperienced leaders shouldn't be forcing advancement so fast. Experienced leaders shouldn't be focused on advancing so fast. 

All you are talking about is advancing. Why? I admit I haven't led girls, but I can't imagine they joined the BSA only to advance. Surely one of them wants to sleep in a tent and hike up a trail. Surely. 

Adventure, adventure, adventure.

Barry

[RememberSchiff]

Ok then.  More adventure, more advancement... more fun, less arguing.

@MattR  @desertrat77  @John-in-KC @LeCastor  @NJCubScouter

Edited February 12, 2019 by RememberSchiff
forgot NJ, sorry about that.

[RememberSchiff]

2 hours ago, FireStone said:

Scout rank is the Bobcat badge of the troop level. Definitely achievable after 1 meeting, especially if the scouts spent any time at all prior reading the materials and/or practicing.

Without the spinning, I think.  

[qwazse]

My working assumption is "judge not lest ye be judged." Sorry, I did not write the rules.

The troop could be like @shortridge's. On the ball, chock full of 1st class scouts (concept, not the patch), and wanting to get duly recognized for their hard work on day 1 so their next meeting is about who's gonna cook the winning D/O desert at spring camporee.

Or it could be like the obsessed-with-advancement cases @Ranman328 and @Eagledad and I have seen too many of. How many is too many? One in the district. Or, worse, in your family. It really is sad to see the promise of scouting robbed from teenage nephews by leaders with a wrong vision of troop life. All I have to say to that is thank God for the good folks in TL/USA.

With regard to Scouts BSA for girls, I'm not seeing a problem based on the pictures I've seen. Most of their day 1 uniforms don't have rank patches on them.

With regard to this particular troop (or if you are a district commissioner hearing of any such troop in your district). Nothing can be known for sure until the UC gets boots on the ground. That might include going on the troop's next camp out. I've had more fun on camp outs simply tossing a line to a leader (adult or youth) and asking, "Hey, could you tie off the your end to yonder tree with a timber hitch?"

FWIW, for the past few years, I've had a hard time getting our scouts to free up time to check out an orienteering club. I know why they don't want to do it. 1) Events are on Sundays. 2) The palpable fear of failure among the boys of upper rank. My only hope is to get one troop to throw down a challenge to ours. The boots-on-the-ground approach is not easy. But, I believe it is more rewarding.

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by qwazse

[shortridge]

41 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

All you are talking about is advancing. Why? 

Because that’s the subject of this thread?

[Eagledad]

Just now, shortridge said:

Because that’s the subject of this thread?

Yep, so are our opinions of not focusing on advancing so much.

One other thing, our opinions are for all troops, not just one gender. Seems to make a difference I wasn't expecting. 

Barry

[MattR]

The real subject of the thread is whether a new commissioner should step in and say something about how advancement may be happening in a very new troop. I have no idea about what commissioners are supposed to do but asking questions is a good place to start. 

I'm working with troop guides right now and the point of Scout is to teach the new scouts how advancement is done. It's possible the rank could be done in one meeting but if these scouts came up through cub scouts I'd be suspicious. Again, ask questions. What we don't want is the cub scout advancement model.

As for "adventure, adventure, adventure," I'd think "fun, adventure, friendship" would be a bit closer. I told my troop guides that for every skill they teach, whether advancement or outdoor or patrol, they have to try to make a game of it.

[perdidochas]

On 2/11/2019 at 9:51 PM, Ranman328 said:

So I was asked for some advice by a "new" unit Commissioner of a new Girl Scout Unit about Advancement.  It appears that an entire Troop earned the Scout Rank Badge the first day they were in existence.  I find it hard to believe that an entire Troop were able to complete ALL the Scout requirements in one day.  Am I behind the times or being too naive about signing off on requirements.  I am a Scoutmaster and can't for the life of me see how anyone can earn the Scout Rank in one day.

Well, if they were Webelos, it could be simple.

1. Scouts

   1a. Repeat from memory the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan. In your own words, explain their meaning.

   1b. Explain what Scout spirit is. Describe some ways you have shown Scout spirit by practicing the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan.

   1c. Demonstrate the Scout sign, salute, and handshake. Explain when they should be used.

   1d. Describe the First Class Scout badge and tell what each part stands for. Explain the significance of the First Class Scout badge.

   1e. Repeat from memory the Outdoor Code. In your own words, explain what the Outdoor Code means to you.

   1f. Repeat from memory the Pledge of Allegiance. In your own words, explain its meaning.

2. After attending at least one Scout troop meeting, do the following:

   2a. Describe how the Scouts in the troop provide its leadership.

   2b. Describe the four steps of Scout advancement.

   2c. Describe the Scouts BSA ranks and how they are earned.

   2d. Describe what merit badges are and how they are earned.

3. Patrol

   3a. Explain the patrol method. Describe the types of patrols that are used in your troop.

   3b. Become familiar with your patrol name, emblem, flag, and yell. Explain how these items create patrol spirit.

4. Knots & ropes

   4a. Show how to tie a square knot, two half-hitches, and a taut-line hitch. Explain how each knot is used.

   4b. Show the proper care of a rope by learning how to whip and fuse the ends of different kinds of rope.

5. Tell what you need to know about pocketknife safety.
6. With your parent or guardian, complete the exercises in the pamphlet How to Protect Your Children from Child Abuse: A Parent’s Guide and earn the Cyber Chip Award for your grade.^[1]
7. Since joining the troop and while working on Scout rank, participate in a Scoutmaster conference.

[DuctTape]

I would encourage folks to do all the requirements as written and time themselves. That multiplied by a "kid factor" is how long it would take to test each scout. Based on number of scouts and those leaders (adult or youth) who are testing the scouts will provide an approximate amount of time. 

[qwazse]

30 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

I would encourage folks to do all the requirements as written and time themselves. That multiplied by a "kid factor" is how long it would take to test each scout. Based on number of scouts and those leaders (adult or youth) who are testing the scouts will provide an approximate amount of time. 

Timing oneself is a good idea. But, if many of the new scouts are 16 year old venturers, camp staff, or girl scouts, I would suggest that "kid factor" will be less than 1. They are very efficient at making sure everyone is on the same page. Keep in mind that "Group Identity" is a method of venturing. Most folks relate that to uniforming. But in application it comes down to making sure everyone knows the ideals and by-laws of the group.

As time goes on, and older scouts get busy doing other things, and younger scouts have more interest adventure and fellowship than advancement, then you get that lag that we normally see in most crossovers.

[Ranman328]

Update:  Meeting was approximately three hours.  Seven scouts, none above 13, two were Webelos that did not earn AOL.  UC did not see any Patrol voting or Patrol decisions occur but he arrived about 15 minutes late to the meeting.  He did have an interesting that three Scouts did not even have their handbooks at the meeting.  No flags to be seen and did not conduct a closing ceremony.  Have a Scoutmaster and one Assistant Scoutmaster.  Conferences lasted about five minutes each.  They were only instructed how to "Whip and fuse a rope" but did not actually do it due to having fire or flame inside the building.  I advised him to monitor the Troop and give advice as he is a former Scoutmaster of 10 years himself.  My advice would be slow down and enjoy the program and absorb as much as you can because it is over before you know it.  I'm not sure what the rush is all about. 

[Eagle94-A1]

4 minutes ago, Ranman328 said:

  My advice would be slow down and enjoy the program and absorb as much as you can because it is over before you know it.  I'm not sure what the rush is all about. 

Agree with slowing down and enjoying the program. But there are some adults, and a few girls, who want to have or to be the first female Eagle Scout in their city, county, council, state, etc.

[qwazse]

41 minutes ago, Ranman328 said:

Update:  Meeting was approximately three hours.  Seven scouts, none above 13, two were Webelos that did not earn AOL.  UC did not see any Patrol voting or Patrol decisions occur but he arrived about 15 minutes late to the meeting.  He did have an interesting that three Scouts did not even have their handbooks at the meeting.  No flags to be seen and did not conduct a closing ceremony.  Have a Scoutmaster and one Assistant Scoutmaster.  Conferences lasted about five minutes each.  They were only instructed how to "Whip and fuse a rope" but did not actually do it due to having fire or flame inside the building.  I advised him to monitor the Troop and give advice as he is a former Scoutmaster of 10 years himself.  My advice would be slow down and enjoy the program and absorb as much as you can because it is over before you know it.  I'm not sure what the rush is all about. 

Yep, this is one of those situations where the UC could definitely help ... even if it's by showing up with a half-dozen frayed ropes asking, "Hey, since I saw that you learned this ..." Meanwhile pull the SM/ASM aside and ask if the girls told them their desired agenda for the next two meetings and next event. (In other words, ask what the adults learned from those SMC's.)

Most of the Scout Rank requirements would be demonstrated in those 1st 15 minutes. So, that's when he needs to be there. If thinks aren't looking sharp, he could also drop that as a goal going forward.

I would be slow to call out "high-speed low-drag" until I saw that scouts weren't remembering basic things like Oath, Law, square-knots, and their patrol yell.

 

[FireStone]

1 hour ago, Ranman328 said:

... My advice would be slow down and enjoy the program and absorb as much as you can because it is over before you know it.  I'm not sure what the rush is all about. 

I made the comment earlier that Scout rank is the troop equivalent of Bobcat at the Pack level. Going back to that comment, I'd add that since many Packs (mine included) bang out Bobcat in one meeting, I see no reason to be concerned about the rapid rank advancement at that level. If it continues in Tenderfoot, Second Class and beyond, sure I'd be concerned, just like I'd be concerned to see rapid completion of anything at the Cub level besides Bobcat.

If it were me, I'd take a wait-and-see approach to this. Check out the next meeting, the 3rd meeting, see what's happening. Then decide if there's really cause for concern.

[MattR]

3 hours ago, Ranman328 said:

"Whip and fuse a rope" but did not actually do it due to having fire or flame inside the building.

You could have mentioned that no fire is required to whip a rope. And besides, go outside and fuse the rope.

3 hours ago, Ranman328 said:

I'm not sure what the rush is all about. 

Yep. I'd say it's better to get everything else signed off and then ask the scouts what they want to do about the ropes.

Again, not sure how the commissioner should best affect things.