How should I help my boy?

[HashTagScouts]

Regarding incident reporting, yes, I am with Ranman that the BSA does want any incident that involves violation of BSA guidelines or policies (such as those outlined in the GTSS), or inappropriate behavior by a Scout/adult, to be reported through your local council.  You can find the resource info at https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/incident-report/

In terms of 'disciplinary action', that is very much with the involvement of the CO.  It is my opinion that it is essential to have a great relationship with the CO and that the COR have actual involvement in the unit.  I have had knowledge (and was personally too much knowledge that I wish I did not have) of an incident where the SM and CC made a disciplinary decision, that later resulted in a lawsuit by the parents of the youth that these individuals deemed to have been the perpetrator. The council was named as well, and was able to be dropped as a defendant when the statements were made that the COR was not involved and the unit did not follow BSA policy of reporting the incident to council.

Like it or not, we live in a CYA world today.  

  

 

[Eagledad]

2 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Regarding incident reporting, yes, I am with Ranman that the BSA does want any incident that involves violation of BSA guidelines or policies (such as those outlined in the GTSS), or inappropriate behavior by a Scout/adult, to be reported through your local council.  You can find the resource info at https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/incident-report/

In terms of 'disciplinary action', that is very much with the involvement of the CO.  It is my opinion that it is essential to have a great relationship with the CO and that the COR have actual involvement in the unit.  I have had knowledge (and was personally too much knowledge that I wish I did not have) of an incident where the SM and CC made a disciplinary decision, that later resulted in a lawsuit by the parents of the youth that these individuals deemed to have been the perpetrator. The council was named as well, and was able to be dropped as a defendant when the statements were made that the COR was not involved and the unit did not follow BSA policy of reporting the incident to council.

Like it or not, we live in a CYA world today.  

  

Unless laws are broken, council would rather the units deal with these issues first. 

Our experience has been that when the parents are brought in at the very beginning, these issues quickly work themselves out. In fact, I can't think of a situation where we had continued problems once the parents were brought into the discussion. They don't like bad behavior anymore than unit leaders.

It's only when the unit disciplines their son before notifying the parents that lawyers get involved.

It is really that simple, but I am amazed of how many scouters believe their scout leader title qualifies them to discipline other parents' sons without notification. Many, even think they are setting an example for the parents of how to deal with bad behavior. I even see it even on this forum. But, Scouters can be hot heads too. 

Summer camps are bit more challenging because of distance and the stress cause by long physically demanding week in the out door environment. I used to coach our adults about mid week to be alert to the stress and to help support each other if they feel one of us over reacting. The camp staff will also be glad to help. They like to nip problems in the bud. Worst case scenarios, we call the parents to pick their son up. We give the parents basic information, but don't discuss discipline until the troop gets back and the adults had time to rest. 9 times out of 10, the parents have taken care of the situation. Again, parents don't like bad behavior anymore than unit adult leaders. 

It is also a good idea to give a report to the COR or District leadership, if for no other reason then to have another opinion. In our case, the COR could care less, but our District Commissioner was very helpful in these situations. But, everyone outside of the unit would rather the unit deal with the situation first before being "pulled" into the drama. I found the only time we pulled outsiders in was with adult bad behavior because parents generally handled scout bad behavior.

The OP here has a more difficult situation because the spouse has created some confusion, but that doesn't change these suggestions. The unit should start with the parents, and then move up if they must.

Barry 

[jsychk]

4 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Unless laws are broken, council would rather the units deal with these issues first. 

Our experience has been that when the parents are brought in at the very beginning, these issues quickly work themselves out. In fact, I can't think of a situation where we had continued problems once the parents were brought into the discussion. They don't like bad behavior anymore than unit leaders.

It's only when the unit disciplines their son before notifying the parents that lawyers get involved.

It is really that simple, but I am amazed of how many scouters believe their scout leader title qualifies them to discipline other parents' sons without notification. Many, even think they are setting an example for the parents of how to deal with bad behavior. I even see it even on this forum. But, Scouters can be hot heads too. 

Summer camps are bit more challenging because of distance and the stress cause by long physically demanding week in the out door environment. I used to coach our adults about mid week to be alert to the stress and to help support each other if they feel one of us over reacting. The camp staff will also be glad to help. They like to nip problems in the bud. Worst case scenarios, we call the parents to pick their son up. We give the parents basic information, but don't discuss discipline until the troop gets back and the adults had time to rest. 9 times out of 10, the parents have taken care of the situation. Again, parents don't like bad behavior anymore than unit adult leaders. 

It is also a good idea to give a report to the COR or District leadership, if for no other reason then to have another opinion. In our case, the COR could care less, but our District Commissioner was very helpful in these situations. But, everyone outside of the unit would rather the unit deal with the situation first before being "pulled" into the drama. I found the only time we pulled outsiders in was with adult bad behavior because parents generally handled scout bad behavior.

The OP here has a more difficult situation because the spouse has created some confusion, but that doesn't change these suggestions. The unit should start with the parents, and then move up if they must.

Barry 

Let me clarify! The leader called us on Wednesday & asked us to pick up my son from the camp. My husband did.  When the troop came back from the camp on Sunday, my husband went over to pick up my son's "lugguage" and had a brief meeting with the leaders. They didn't talk about the discipline (i.e. 6 months suspension) until after the SM tried to set up a face-to-face meeting with my husband. Somehow my husband couldn't make it so they eventually did it over the phone. After that, my son was given the suspension. We don't know about the other kid who was also suspended. It would be nice to know because his dad was very involved with the Troop. The dad has always been dedicated to scouting so he would have a better understanding of the discipline.  

Now, thinking back....I should have gotten involved at that time because I had always been in charge of my son until he went to Boy Scouts. My son also talked to me about his camping adventures so I can probably communicate with the leaders better. 

I apologize for not explaining clearly.  Please pardon me for my poor English, which is my second language.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, jsychk said:

Let me clarify! The leader called us on Wednesday & asked us to pick up my son from the camp. My husband did.  When the troop came back from the camp on Sunday, my husband went over to pick up my son's "lugguage" and had a brief meeting with the leaders. They didn't talk about the discipline (i.e. 6 months suspension) until after the SM tried to set up a face-to-face meeting with my husband. Somehow my husband couldn't make it so they eventually did it over the phone. After that, my son was given the suspension. We don't know about the other kid who was also suspended. It would be nice to know because his dad was very involved with the Troop. The dad has always been dedicated to scouting so he would have a better understanding of the discipline.  

Now, thinking back....I should have gotten involved at that time because I had always been in charge of my son until he went to Boy Scouts. My son also talked to me about his camping adventures so I can probably communicate with the leaders better. 

I apologize for not explaining clearly.  Please pardon me for my poor English, which is my second language.

Yes, I wasn't commenting on your specific situation. I was only adding some clarification of the councils expectations with units in regard of discipline.

Barry

Edited January 30, 2019 by Eagledad

[numbersnerd]

On 1/29/2019 at 10:48 PM, jsychk said:

I totally understand the importance of the family foundation, but what if the dad doesn't lead and is not being proactive? How long should I wait? After a few years, I figured out my husband is not teaching the boys "the guy stuff" along the way, I have to step in one way or the other. 

First of all, I don't think my husband is against Scouting. He just doesn't seem to care either way. He knows what I choose for our boys is good for them.  Secondly, my son seems to have a good time camping and hanging out with his friends. It is possible that my kids may not reach to the Eagle (two dedicated parents surely help!) but I still appreciate what he learns in the process. 

Sadly, I see more and more dads are like that now. I don't know why. Almost 10 years, most of our Pack leaders were male/dads. If there's a female/mom, it's ONLY because her husband is in the military overseas or she is a single mom. Now, our Pack has a few moms whose husbands are around but never step up to volunteer or be the leaders. 

You and your husband obviously had different ideas and expectations of what his role was in regards to Scouting. You assumed he was doing certain things and he wasn't. But something significant in your situation is that you said your son was really enjoying Scouts. So why does that have to change? Maybe the current level of parental involvement is fine.By excel, I meant enjoy the time he spends in Scouting and get as much as he can/wants out of it. Whether that is advancement or not is up to him. Regardless of his desires, if his parents aren't on the same page with each other and with him, it will be less than optimal.

All of those issues have the same resolution: Communication and common understanding.

• Talk to the current leaders and they will let you know what they need or expect from you.
• You and your husband need to discuss and figure out what he is willing and able to do that meshes with what the unit needs and expects of volunteers.
• Talk to your son to find out if any of these potential changes will impact his enjoyment and experiences in Scouting.

If you are disappointed in the fact that there aren't more men taking on these roles, then I hope you appreciate (and let them know that you do) those that do. And do what you can to support them in their efforts. Nothing beats hearing from a parent that their son has gotten something from their time in Scouting and is a better person for it. Nothing beats volunteers down more than having to listen to criticism of their efforts and how to fulfill their responsibilities from someone who isn't involved. There are many threads here about difficult/helicopter/demanding parents. And the problem seems to be growing. Small wonder that the number of those willing to subject themselves to that is shrinking.

The old axiom of "No good deed goes unpunished" becomes truer every day.

[Ranman328]

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 5:17 AM, Pale Horse said:

Dude! Please tell me you're joking.

Ranman328:  Posts something.

DavidCO: Quotes your post in his reply.

Ranman328: "Tell me where I said that."

lol

First off my name isn't "Dude"  Please show some respect and no I am not joking!!!!!  I never said what he said I did and the Quote proves that as he still has not showed where I said that.  I said disciplinary regarding the revocation of a Membership.  I said nothing about a knife violation or two scouts getting in a fight or not agreeing with their patrol leader.  I am so sick of you people taking everyone's posts out of context and adding your own spin and then bashing them.  I thought you people were Scouts and Scouters.  You act like a mob culture.  Again  Show me where I said it!!!

[Treflienne]

20 minutes ago, Ranman328 said:

I said disciplinary regarding the revocation of a Membership

 

20 minutes ago, Ranman328 said:

Again  Show me where I said it!!! 

 

On 1/29/2019 at 2:05 PM, Ranman328 said:

Per the National Capital Area Council, which is my council, you must notify District and Council of any disciplinary actions taken by the troop to a scout.  Not sure what area you are from but this according to them has been BSA Policy for years.  If a Scout is a first time offender or is involved in a fight, I find it sad that a Troop would just suspend that scout without sitting him and his parents down for a discussion first.  Just my opinion.  

Hi @Ranman328

I bolded some things you said.  You may have meant "disciplinary regarding the revocation of a Membership".   But that qualifiying phrase did not appear in your prior post, in which you said "you must notify District and Council of any disciplinary actions taken by the troop to a scout."   I suspect it may have been an accidental omission, but it has been causing some confusion.

[David CO]

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 9:14 PM, Ranman328 said:

I never said what he said I did and the Quote proves that as he still has not showed where I said that.  I said disciplinary regarding the revocation of a Membership.  I said nothing about a knife violation or two scouts getting in a fight or not agreeing with their patrol leader.  I am so sick of you people taking everyone's posts out of context and adding your own spin and then bashing them.  I thought you people were Scouts and Scouters.  You act like a mob culture.  Again  Show me where I said it!!!

I put your comment in bold.

This might make for an interesting discussion in another thread, but it has little to do with the current discussion. The OP's son did not have his membership revoked. He was suspended from participation in troop activities for 6 months. After that, the parent did not renew his membership.

I am sticking to my position. The unit leadership does not need to notify district or council. They can simply remove his name at re-charter time. Nothing more needs to be said.

 

[Ranman328]

On February 2, 2019 at 6:44 PM, David CO said:

I put your comment in bold.

This might make for an interesting discussion in another thread, but it has little to do with the current discussion. The OP's son did not have his membership revoked. He was suspended from participation in troop activities for 6 months. After that, the parent did not renew his membership.

I am sticking to my position. The unit leadership does not need to notify district or council. They can simply remove his name at re-charter time. Nothing more needs to be said.

 

My apologies to all that I was not crystal clear in the fact that we were all talking about a scout being "Suspended" and having his "Membership" revoked which is exactly what happened to this scout so let's not split hairs.  Yes according our Council Executive, you MUST report ANY Discipinary Decision that concludes in a Scout being suspended.  So YES, I was right in the fact that it should have been reported to the Camp, District and Council.  As a Unit Commissioner, if I found out this happened without it being reported, there would be a problem.  So @David CO, I hope you don't get caught in a situation like this.  good Luck!

[David CO]

On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 9:23 PM, Ranman328 said:

My apologies to all that I was not crystal clear in the fact that we were all talking about a scout being "Suspended" and having his "Membership" revoked which is exactly what happened to this scout so let's not split hairs.  Yes according our Council Executive, you MUST report ANY Discipinary Decision that concludes in a Scout being suspended.  So YES, I was right in the fact that it should have been reported to the Camp, District and Council.  As a Unit Commissioner, if I found out this happened without it being reported, there would be a problem.  So @David CO, I hope you don't get caught in a situation like this.  good Luck!

I don't care who you that. It isn't true.

[TAHAWK]

Like most public schools, BSA distinguishes between "suspension" and "revocation" of membership.  Sexual predator Michael Kelsey, it was announced, was first "suspended" and then had his membership "revoked."  Sexual predator John Lenwell  was suspended for two years and had his membership revoked only after he molested another Scout in a different unit.

"The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth’s membership in the unit.

If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout’s membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout’s membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action."

Guide to Safe Scouting [emphasis added]

 

[qwazse]

6 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Like most public schools, BSA distinguishes between "suspension" and "revocation" of membership. ...

Is that distinction fading? Or is one arm of the organization not aware of the other? Continue the discussion here:

 

[TAHAWK]

internal communication within BSA is often, like external communication, awful.  Plus, inconsistencies abound.

[desertrat77]

34 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

internal communication within BSA is often, like external communication, awful.  Plus, inconsistencies abound.

 Spot on!

[Ranman328]

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 8:57 PM, David CO said:

I don't care who you that. It isn't true.

Looks like according to TAHAWK and BSA's Guide to Safe Scouting and our District and Council Executive, I was correct that Council should have been notified.