Closure

[Eagle94-A1]

Actually I found out she messaged me before I read her message from the SM and an ASM. Apparently she asked them about me, then told them she messaged me about it. 

Not that it really mattered IMHO. They were told the all of the reasons why I was leaving. And she did share my response with her husband, and I bet their friends too.

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

If there's a teachable female ASM out their. Encourage your buddy to take the leap.

At this stage, I think he would rather be SM of his daughter's troop than the boys' troop. Not only would he be working with his daughter, he would not have to deal with drama.

[WisconsinMomma]

12 hours ago, qwazse said:

If there's a teachable female ASM out their. Encourage your buddy to take the leap.

There are plenty of teachable females out there!  Let's not let a few difficult parents dissuade anyone from making new Scouting friends.   And I should take issue with the word "teachable" too -- how about -- females who are new to Scouting and interested in the program??

We really need to be careful just because some moms (and dads) are difficult, we don't generalize that all moms (or dads) who ever ask a question, want to participate, or haven't learned the ways of Scouting yet are terrible people.

Edited January 27, 2019 by WisconsinMomma

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

There are plenty of teachable females out there!  Let's not let a few difficult parents dissuade anyone from making new Scouting friends.   And I should take issue with the word "teachable" too -- how about -- females who are new to Scouting and interested in the program??

We really need to be careful just because some moms (and dads) are difficult, we don't generalize that all moms (or dads) who ever ask a question, want to participate, or haven't learned the ways of Scouting yet are terrible people.

Asking questions + want to participate + willing to learn = teachable.

We are really picky about our ASMs.

This isn't a matter of terrible or noble. It's a matter of who can suppress their fears enough to let their daughters set up camp 100 yards away. If not immediately, then over the course of the year, starting with 10 yards this month, 20 the next ...

If @Eagle94-A1's buddy (who I'm assuming is a pretty teachable guy himself) winds up with an assistant who is all "my way or the highway", then he's just moved from frying pan to fryer. Which, if this were some corporate ladder he is trying to climb might not be a bad thing. But this is his kid's troop that may boom and bust. And if it flourishes this year, he might hand it off the SM patch to a female leader pretty soon. An adult can come in with all kinds of useful personality traits, but he/she needs to constantly adjust which ones come to the fore when working with youth. And that usually means that you have to have other adults point out what needs to change, and if they are the least bit right, adjust accordingly. Not always fun, most often rewarding.

So yeah, teachable has got to be the word.

[Eagledad]

4 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

There are plenty of teachable females out there!  Let's not let a few difficult parents dissuade anyone from making new Scouting friends.   And I should take issue with the word "teachable" too -- how about -- females who are new to Scouting and interested in the program??

 

I’m a little surprised you took issue with teachable. You have been on this forum long enough to see that we harp on this very thing a lot. The adults have to learn more and learn faster than the scouts just to stay out of their way. And scouters without a youth scouting experience are double the risk because they don’t know what to look for from the youths perspective. Adults simply have different ambitions than youth at this age and if an adult can’t calm their pride with humility, they will take the fun out of the scouts program. 

Qwazse colors “teachable” very well:

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

This isn't a matter of terrible or noble. It's a matter of who can suppress their fears enough to let their daughters set up camp 100 yards away. If not immediately, then over the course of the year, starting with 10 yards this month, 20 the next ...

I used to teach in scoutmasters fundamentals that fear is the main cause of adult directed boy run programs. The adults have push gradually push past their fears.

Many here, including moderaters and forum owner, don’t care for my opinions on the subject of girls, but am skeptical because the program has struggled with the last influx of inexperienced adults. Pride and ignorance are hard hurdles to overcome. 

Barry

[Eagle94-A1]

I have to agree, "Teachable" can be applied to anyone. One of the parents causing problems has completed all training: YPT2, SM and ASM Specific, and ItOLS. According to BSA, he is fully trained. However he still does not understand the Boy Scout, 5 days away from Scouting BSA, Program. And multiple attempts to teach him have proved fruitless. 

[WisconsinMomma]

It's "teachable female" that I'm taking issue with, as if, that's a rare combo.   Perhaps I misunderstood the intent, but I've noted here that moms often get complained about, and --- they're part of the program too!   Yes, I am nitpicking, but, I really don't want moms in general to have a bad rap in the BSA.

Edited January 28, 2019 by WisconsinMomma

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

It's "teachable female" that I'm taking issue with, as if, that's a rare combo.   Perhaps I misunderstood the intent, but I've noted here that moms often get complained about, and --- they're part of the program too!   Yes, I am nitpicking, but, I really don't want moms in general to have a bad rap in the BSA.

Ok, I’m sure you’re right. But when I meet a new mom in the troop, I’m 100 % sure she doesn’t have any Boy Scout youth experience. With dads, I start by asking if. You may feel that’s a bad rap, but how does a unit deal the situation if they aren’t willing to admit reality. 

That being said, I’m guessing the discussions here of problematic adult leaders are 4 men to every woman.

Barry

[qwazse]

46 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

It's "teachable female" that I'm taking issue with, as if, that's a rare combo.   Perhaps I misunderstood the intent, but I've noted here that moms often get complained about, and --- they're part of the program too!   Yes, I am nitpicking, but, I really don't want moms in general to have a bad rap in the BSA.

It's BSA requireing the ASM has to be female. If the SM garners a teachable male ASM (an equally rare commodity in @Eagle94-A1's neighborhood, it seems) he still can't start a Scouts BSA girl troop. If he caves on the teach-ability minimum, his odds of starting one that will last are slim.

With all due respect of any women who may have been wrongly caricatured with stereotypes like "mama bear" and "tiger mom",  we should not tiptoe around what will be required of them as direct contact leaders of new troops for the sake of political correctness.

[MattR]

I understand the phrase teachable and, more importantly, unteachable. It has little to do with gender. There's an ASM in my troop, male, that just can't let go and allow scouts to learn the hard way. It was incredibly frustrating dealing with him. We'd talk, agree how to do things, and before you know it he chucked the whole thing and did things himself. It was easier, more efficient, nobody would be inconvenienced, if the scouts just didn't have to take responsibility. He's great at doing committee stuff and the only reason I didn't remove him. But ASM? Ugh.

As for the phrase teachable female that @qwazse used, given the context of starting a girl's troop, a female SM sounds smart to me. From what I've seen, teachable has more to do with how much outdoor experience someone has. Someone that is comfortable with multi day, bring your gear, cook your food, deal with the weather, get used to the stink type of trips can easily grasp the idea of learning things the hard way because they did learn all that the hard way. The hardest to deal with are those that only do outdoors for a day trip. They think they understand but they always have a shower and warm bed to get back to. Again, independent of gender. For people my age there are a lot more men than women that do this. But for the younger moms of cub scouts, we're finding it less out of balance. The sad thing is that fewer adults of either gender, at that younger age, are volunteering. That is the nut that needs to be cracked in our district.

There is another type of multi day experience I see that is just as good and a lot more girls do this than boys. I've mentioned this before but I've worked with youth that do year long exchange programs in foreign countries. I listened to the adults that run it and they would fit in with a troop with no problem at all. A 100 yards? Try 10,000 miles and you can't talk to your kid for a month, much less see them for 10. That's where I first heard the phrase SIU (suck it up). It's the equivalent of Do I look like your PL? It's an adventure. BTW, they do like Boy Scouts because they know what they're getting.

However, there's an aspect of this saga that has nothing to do with this. Namely, why in the world did the SM let these parents take over the troop? Granted I did not read a lot of the many threads that compromise this story and I may be missing something, but it just goes and goes and goes. I had a dad that was at least as obnoxious as these parents and I ran him off. It took a month but it worked. And so did 2 other SM's. The council eventually told him his son had to be in lone scouts.

[WisconsinMomma]

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Ok, I’m sure you’re right. But when I meet a new mom in the troop, I’m 100 % sure she doesn’t have any Boy Scout youth experience.

 

This is not necessarily true, either.  You can be sure she doesn't have formal BSA experience, but...  take my friend, the daughter of a Montana forester, grew up in the outdoors, whose younger brother was in Scouts and she was always around.  Now, does she know everything?  No.  Does she know some things?  Absolutely.  Nobody knows everything.  I mean, if someone does know everything, they might be unteachable.   My friend certainly has a lot to offer.  

[WisconsinMomma]

4 hours ago, MattR said:

However, there's an aspect of this saga that has nothing to do with this. Namely, why in the world did the SM let these parents take over the troop? Granted I did not read a lot of the many threads that compromise this story and I may be missing something, but it just goes and goes and goes. I had a dad that was at least as obnoxious as these parents and I ran him off. It took a month but it worked. And so did 2 other SM's. The council eventually told him his son had to be in lone scouts.

 

I think what makes a troop vulnerable is when they are light on leadership manpower (heh, heh) and the new folks waltz in.  Strong personalities can overpower the existing leadership.  Remember that thread with the CC where a parent just showed up in uniform and started acting like he ran the place?   It can get crazy out there. 

[qwazse]

This ...

4 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

... Now, does she know everything?  No.  Does she know some things?  Absolutely.  Nobody knows everything.  I mean, if someone does know everything, they might be unteachable.   My friend certainly has a lot to offer.  

I've seen troops derailed by "know everything" assistants (let's call them KEA's). I'm not alone. Heck, when our troop merged, our SM thought I was one of those KEA's because, in a board room, I usually lead with my strongest opinion, and it can sound like my way or the highway. But in the field, I spend a lot of time figuring out what everyone needs, and am always picking up other folks' tips and tricks. Anyway, I had no clue that he assumed I was another KEA until he came and apologized for misjudging me.

So is your friend a KEA? You honestly don't know for sure until she gets to working the program, but your esteem of her is probably a good indication that she's not. So, recruit her!

Edited January 28, 2019 by qwazse

[ParkMan]

5 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I think what makes a troop vulnerable is when they are light on leadership manpower (heh, heh) and the new folks waltz in.  Strong personalities can overpower the existing leadership.  Remember that thread with the CC where a parent just showed up in uniform and started acting like he ran the place?   It can get crazy out there. 

I think this is a big part of it.  Related to this is the lack of a SM and CC who is willing to tell someone to "sit down and stop talking."  I've come to appreciate that the phrase "lead the ..." in those role descriptions is all about setting the tone and communicating the kind of pack or troop it is.  

5 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

This is not necessarily true, either.  You can be sure she doesn't have formal BSA experience, but...  take my friend, the daughter of a Montana forester, grew up in the outdoors, whose younger brother was in Scouts and she was always around.  Now, does she know everything?  No.  Does she know some things?  Absolutely.  Nobody knows everything.  I mean, if someone does know everything, they might be unteachable.   My friend certainly has a lot to offer.  

I've found that when you've got a strong program that youth BSA experience is a bonus- but certainly not necessary.  Just as two troops down the road are very different so too is most people's youth troops.  Since our troop has a very strong sense of who we are, people adjust to how we do things.  Sure, they bring their own twist from their youth, but it doesn't make them any more successful.  Our leaders without BSA youth experience do just fine.  So yes, I'd definitely encourage your friend to go for it!

Edited January 28, 2019 by ParkMan
Left out a word and fixed some phrasing

[Eagledad]

5 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

This is not necessarily true, either.  You can be sure she doesn't have formal BSA experience, but...  take my friend, the daughter of a Montana forester, grew up in the outdoors, whose younger brother was in Scouts and she was always around.  Now, does she know everything?  No.  Does she know some things?  Absolutely.  Nobody knows everything.  I mean, if someone does know everything, they might be unteachable.   My friend certainly has a lot to offer.  

OK, then 99.99 percent of women don't have a youth boy scout experience.

All women have a lot to offer. I have raised and trained many good female leaders. Many. And many of them have more to offer than men (Well yes, because I trained them). But, we have found that a Troop without experienced adults take twice as long to get up to speed as units with even just one experienced scouter. Youth experience can make that much difference.

I used to teach teachable moments in our council. I didn't call the course that, but the material  was exactly what qwazse described. Learn how to not let your fears stop the boys experience. Little by little everyday. Some men needed the course as much as women. But in general, all moms needed the course. 

I believe you are being overly sensitive, would it feel better to talk about scouters as "X"s and "O"s? Well I guess now "Z"s too.

As you are learning, running a quality program is hard. It requires adults questioning and evaluating all the time how the program is moving. An adult run troop is a lot easier than a patrol method troop because controlling a herd in one corral is easier than working with each individual scout in the open field at their maturity and pace. Do you really want you make it harder by believing in the good-ol-boys are out to get you? I assure you good-ol-boys clubs are few and very far between. 

As you gain experience in this scouting stuff, a light bulb is going to open your eyes. You will see that boys really are different than girls, even as adults. And, working with those differences is a lot easier than working against them. I know you think you understand the differences now, but if you did, you wouldn't let the little truths bother you. You would use them to make the rough road of the bigger picture smoother.

Barry

 

[ParkMan]

32 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

OK, then 99.99 percent of women don't have a youth boy scout experience.

Having youth Scouting experience does not make someone any more likely to be a better leader.  Being a good leader in Scouting is more about a willingness to learn and embrace what the program is trying to accomplish.  Being a great leader in Scouting is happens in people who are willing to be self-reflective and humble and strive to learn more.

So the fact that 99.99 percent of women don't have youth both scout experience is a red herring.

39 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Do you really want you make it harder by believing in the good-ol-boys are out to get you? I assure you good-ol-boys clubs are few and very far between. 

Just as we should encourage female Scouters to not look for cliques where they don't exist, so too should we challenge the way we discuss these things. We are a Scout led troop and have had female ASMs in our troop for 20+ years.  In our troop it would be absurd to ever make a statements like "teachable female ASM" of "suppress their fears enough to let their daughters set up camp 100 yards away."  .  I'm not picking on the earlier comment, but it's simply one that doesn't reflect any real gender difference. 

I read comments like this and they jump out at me for how unnecessary that they are.  As we discussed this one, look how it turned to a discussion about youth BSA experience.  My interpretation is that some leaders have problems training leaders without BSA experience as a youth.  They conclude that since 99.9% of women could not have had youth BSA experience, it will be very difficult to teach a female ASM.  But - at it's core, it has nothing to do with being a female - so why trying to equate the two?  Instead, we ought to be dealing with how to develop leaders who do not have youth BSA experience.

Just my .02