desertrat77 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Eagle, at the risk of repeating what someone else said: You owe no explanation. And anything you provide will be a) twisted in meaning by the parents and b) viewed as encouragement for further engagement. People like the parents in question thrive on toxicity. Yes, it's cathartic to type it all out. But to actually send anything rational? It's a hill not worth taking. You'd be throwing your pearls to the swine. Recommend no reply at all, or a short reply such as "I wish you the best in all of your future endeavors." 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 20 hours ago, qwazse said: Even shorter than @ParkMan's, I would say ... This is definitely one of those "less is more" situations. Your write-up is more succinct, but I doubt it would be received well. I fear it would further burn bridges. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjohns2 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 I think you letter is fine. You focus on examples of letting youth leaders lead. I do think you place a heavy emphasis on this “CAN DO” concept be “have done”. I do not believe that language or focus is part of the official program. If so, can you point to a reference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBob Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 You must send the letter in order to have any chance of closure. That way you will know that you have done everything that you possibly could do to help right the course of Troop XX. Not sending your explanation will bolster the Webelos 3 mentality, "I asked him for an explanation, and he never got back to me. So he must have had personal reasons." Retaliation? These folks have driven you from your home troop. What could they possibly do more? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share Posted January 25, 2019 3 hours ago, mrjohns2 said: I think you letter is fine. You focus on examples of letting youth leaders lead. I do think you place a heavy emphasis on this “CAN DO” concept be “have done”. I do not believe that language or focus is part of the official program. If so, can you point to a reference? "Master the Skills" came from previous editions of the Boy Scout Handbook. Give a few and I can find citations. "'The badge represents what the Scout CAN DO, not what he has done." was the standard in previous editions of the Guide to Advancement. Unfortunately I have a new computer, and cannot find those files. I do not think I have them backed up as they use to be readily available. Sadly the current Guide to Advancement no longer states that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted January 26, 2019 Author Share Posted January 26, 2019 Well I sent the letter. I first sent it to the SM and the core ASMs, basically my friends who knew the whole reason for leaving, not the polite, but also true, "The new troop's meetings are a better night for us." Because of my meetings with them saying why I am leaving, the troop is in the process of reforms. But as you can imagine, these two families are ticked off and fighting it. According to the SM, they lost an entire Cross Over Den because of the new policy that only trained ASMs can go camping now. Personally I think the chaos the two adults caused on the camp out with them is the true reason. To say it was a "Charley Foxtrot" would be an understatement. And from what little I saw of them that weekend, if I was a brand new parent, I wouldn't want to join the troop either. I commented how I don't think it will change anything, and wasn't going to bother with it. But they encouraged me to anyway. I believe they were hoping that the letter would make her finally understand what her, her husband, and the other family are destroying the troop. Nope, she still didn't understand. First her post was rambling about her son/ Then she denied her husband or anyone else implied lawsuits if anything happens. Then she went on about how the current Scouters have a duty to intervene and correct interfering adults. LIke the 6 parents meetings and numerous counseling sessions with the other family, and the counseling session we attempted to have with her around a campfire and coffee/hot cocoa where she not only interrupted what when we were talking, but accused us of being sexist were not our attempts to correct them. She completely ignored the threats to leave and my comment about her leaving an event because she was not getting her way. Finally she asked if her chewing me out since I had to rescheduled a MB session at the last minute because one of my Eagles was going to be in my area and wanted to visit at the last minute, was my final straw. So I ended our online discussion and blocked her because she just won't get it. I also removed myself from the troop's FB page, b/c she was beginning to bug me through that. I wish I could say I am completely done with the troop, but I cannot. Before I left, I committed to doing a months' worth of Indian Lore meetings for their SPL, and going to a powwow with them. He asked me again if I could still do it, even though I am no longer int he troop. I AM NOT LETTING THESE IDIOTS CAUSE ME TO BREAK THAT COMMITMENT TO MY SCOUTS! I am looking to see if a friend can do those duties for me, but if he cannot, I will be there for my scouts. But I am done with the adults. It is now my friends' problem. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 41 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said: ... Nope, she still didn't understand. ... I'm shocked! Who would have guessed that all of that gory retelling would have inspired her to respond with equally copious self-justifying verbiage. On the other hand ... 53 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said: ... their SPL ... asked me again if I could still do it, ... This young man ... the only person you need to answer to! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertrat77 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 (edited) What @qwazse said! Definitely help the SPL and the scouts. But the others? Take out your handy dandy Official Boy Scout Pocketknife and cut that rope and let them drift away. Life is too short. Folks like that will never, ever say "Gosh, I see your point of view." Sparing you the long story, I was an ASM in a troop in the '80s, and we had a similar parent. I recognize the vibe. She drove our SM up the wall. Endless letters and meetings never accomplished anything positive. She thrived, everyone else was demoralized. Edited January 26, 2019 by desertrat77 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted January 26, 2019 Author Share Posted January 26, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, desertrat77 said: What @qwazse said! Definitely help the SPL and the scouts. But the others? Take out your handy dandy Official Boy Scout Pocketknife and cut that rope and let them drift away. Life is too short. Folks like that will never, ever say "Gosh, I see your point of view." Sparing you the long story, I was an ASM in a troop in the '80s, and we had a similar parent. I recognize the vibe. She drove our SM up the wall. Endless letters and meetings never accomplished anything positive. She thrived, everyone else was demoralized. Actually took my Becker 21 to slice the line. Seriously, I really think the troop will fold within a year. SM, who is the reason why I stayed as long as I did and is the reason why many of the Scouts are with the troop, has had it for sometime. He came close to cutting off his SM patch and giving it to them on the FUBAR camp out. And now that his daughter can be in Scouts BSA next week, he is in the process of getting a female troop going for her. He has been trying for 6 or 7 months, and cannot get a female SM, so it looks like it is going to be him. Nobody in the troop is either capable of doing the job ( the two troublesome dads) or wants to deal with the headaches the 2 families are causing. The only one who could possibly, stress POSSIBLY, pull it off is ASM Gunship. He's improved some over time, but I do know several families have concerns about him as SM. And they would leave. But that sinking ship is not the one I am on anymore. However I am ready to throw some ring buoys and my boys are ready with throw-bags to rescue any of the Scouts. Edited January 26, 2019 by Eagle94-A1 spelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertrat77 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 (edited) Eagle, my ramblings aside, I forgot to say this in my previous: you've handled this entire situation as a true gentleman and scouter, with much more dignity and patience I could have mustered had I been in your boots. It's difficult to see a troop struggle, especially one we've invested so much in. Edited January 26, 2019 by desertrat77 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSScout Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 And have we forgotten the fate of the (2 ?) families' Scouts? Anything to report about them in this brou haha ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted January 26, 2019 Author Share Posted January 26, 2019 Sadly one family's Scout is First Class because the parents have pushed the issue. While the Scout may have done the skills, it is with dad always right there telling him what to do. Plus his Scout Spirit is a challenge for me. This is the Scout who for over a year has snuck back into his dad's tent, or if the entire family was there, the family tent. This Scout routinely abandons his patrol when there is work to do. On the last camp out I was at, he left his patrol whenever he could and stayed with the family instead. The SM has compromised with his argumentative parents in efforts to get the Scout back on the right track.The Scout really could use unabridged, Patrol Method Scouting to grow up some. So I can understand the SM trying to work it out. But I knew it would affect the rest of the troop morale wise and advised against it. I predicted the compromise would also cause further problems,and IMHO the compromise has backfired and made it worse. Not only has the scout not lived up to his end of the bargain, the parents have gotten more and more demanding and willing to ignore the SM and other Scouters. This family includes the ASM who left summer camp with his son during the middle of the week to stay in a hotel with the wife and younger son without telling anyone The other family's Scout is Second Class, and my impression is that he is only there because his parents are forcing him to become an Eagle. He has not gone camping on a regular basis, always something else coming up, and didn't go to summer camp. To date every camp out he has been on has included mom, dad, or both, including mom's attendance at 2017 summer camp. My impression is that he could care less about completing MBs as evidenced by his mom harping on MBCs to finish stuff he started, or complaining that MBCs are not working with her son when misses MBC sessions being offered. After the implied threat, when he did camp, I stayed away and let others deal with him. Because I am also a RT commissioner, I have friends in the entire district. I know that one family has talked to the Scouters in another troop. Don't know about the other family. Irony is this: the troop they talked to is more "Old School" than any other in the district, and probably the council. They also have the "Trained ASM's only" policy, and the adults try to stay 300 feet away from the scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 18 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said: ... He came close to cutting off his SM patch and giving it to them on the FUBAR camp out. And now that his daughter can be in Scouts BSA next week, he is in the process of getting a female troop going for her. He has been trying for 6 or 7 months, and cannot get a female SM, so it looks like it is going to be him. ... If there's a teachable female ASM out their. Encourage your buddy to take the leap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David CO Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 On 1/24/2019 at 11:07 AM, Eagle94-A1 said: So one of the parents that caused problems wants to know if it was true I left because of her. I wrote a letter and was going to send it to her. Just typing the letter was closure. I am now debating whether to actually send it. Since she asked you the question, I see no reason why you shouldn't answer her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David CO Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said: Well I sent the letter. I first sent it to the SM and the core ASMs I think this was a mistake. You should have replied to her and nobody else. She did ask you the question, but I'm guessing that she expected a one-to-one reply. Not a public statement. Edited January 27, 2019 by David CO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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