Just got 1 girl

[RememberSchiff]

@dfg890 welcome to scouter.com 

[John-in-KC]

@dfg890, Welcome to the forums. 

IN THE EVENT of a single young lady, you need to talk to Mom, he CC, and the chartered organization rep. You need a woman Scouter. Period. 

Good hunting. 

[carebear3895]

*whispers*

Co-Ed Dens are the norm in the field. 

[dfg890]

9 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

*whispers*

Co-Ed Dens are the norm in the field. 

This I understand.  It hasn't been an issue other than at things like the cubgames where the skit that our girl den practiced with the boy den wasn't going to be scored, they essentially upended our structure and placed all the girls in a single den to be scored that way.  It was a mess, and confused the scouts.  I'm aiming to be on the planning committee for next year, now, but I think we need to make that less of a thing we need to be whispering about and let it get adopted as national policy.

[PinkPajamas]

11 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

*whispers*

Co-Ed Dens are the norm in the field. 

You're not suppose to say that part out loud, it will bring on the end times or something.

[ParkMan]

I suspect it will happen during the term on the next CSE.   He had to make promises that there would not be co-ed Scouting.  So, I doubt we'll see him go back on those promises.

[Oldscout448]

3 hours ago, carebear3895 said:

*whispers*

Co-Ed Dens are the norm in the field. 

and co-ed troops seem to be the norm around here.   Just not on paper.

[awanatech]

8 hours ago, carebear3895 said:

*whispers*

Co-Ed Dens are the norm in the field. 

It's too bad that as Scouters, some pretend to go by the rules (on paper), when in reality, so many dance around the rules that are set in place.  And then we wonder why our youth take it upon themselves to decide which rules to follow and which ones are ok to just pretend that we follow. Either we have co-ed dens, or we don't.  If co-ed Dens are what BSA wants, then why do we have to whisper it?  If co-ed Dens are not what BSA wants, then why do we pretend to follow the rules, on paper, but really openly go against it? 

[dfg890]

2 hours ago, awanatech said:

It's too bad that as Scouters, some pretend to go by the rules (on paper), when in reality, so many dance around the rules that are set in place.  And then we wonder why our youth take it upon themselves to decide which rules to follow and which ones are ok to just pretend that we follow. Either we have co-ed dens, or we don't.  If co-ed Dens are what BSA wants, then why do we have to whisper it?  If co-ed Dens are not what BSA wants, then why do we pretend to follow the rules, on paper, but really openly go against it? 

Look, I get what your saying, but the fact is that putting a single webelos girl in a den with a lion and tiger would be a poor experience for that girl.  Honestly all of the kids are blind to these higher level pack structure discussions anyhow.  They do their requirements and don't give much of a second thought to who they do it with.  Other then one cub at the beginning of the year who said 'cub scouts is for boys only!' at the first meeting (he was a tiger, and was quickly corrected) the girls in are pack have been part of the family.  

Also, rote following of the rules can be troublesome too.  I, personally, want to instill in my kids the ability to value justice and the values set forth in scouts and if there are rules that go contrary to those or to other values, then sometimes those rules need to be broken.  Without civil disobedience our country wouldn't exist.  It wasn't exactly legal to throw tea in boston harbor, or to engage in armed rebellion against England.  It wasn't legal for rosa parks to not give up her seat on a bus, or for MLK, jr. to do a lot of what he did.  

We whisper it, because at the end of the day, we want the kids to learn and have a good time.  It only becomes any sort of issue at district level or regional events where the girls would not be allowed to participate with the rest of their 'den', and that's perhaps once a year.  Either way, I hope the official guidance is soon changed.

[Terasec]

8 hours ago, awanatech said:

It's too bad that as Scouters, some pretend to go by the rules (on paper), when in reality, so many dance around the rules that are set in place.  And then we wonder why our youth take it upon themselves to decide which rules to follow and which ones are ok to just pretend that we follow. Either we have co-ed dens, or we don't.  If co-ed Dens are what BSA wants, then why do we have to whisper it?  If co-ed Dens are not what BSA wants, then why do we pretend to follow the rules, on paper, but really openly go against it? 

i agree,

BSA generally tend to only follow rules when its convenient for them

I asked council and BSA TX about clarifying policy on mixed gender dens,

it was like pulling teeth, they didn't want to acknowledge the issue, just referred me to bsa FAQ website

finally they acknowledged that mixed gender dens is against the rules,

yet they are not enforcing it.

looking the other way on violations is how they handled decades of abuse, 

I have lost all respect for BSA as an entity, 

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Terasec

[carebear3895]

15 minutes ago, Terasec said:

i agree,

BSA generally tend to only follow rules when its convenient for them

I asked council and BSA TX about clarifying policy on mixed gender dens,

it was like pulling teeth, they didn't want to acknowledge the issue, just referred me to bsa FAQ website

finally they acknowledged that mixed gender dens is against the rules,

yet they are not enforcing it.

looking the other way on violations is how they handled decades of abuse, 

I have lost all respect for BSA as an entity, 

 

At the end of the day, mixing dens is a better experience for the youth, and isn't that why we are all doing this?

 

What's National going to do? Send guys like me out to revoke charters if a boy and girl associate with each other at a Den meeting? 

[Terasec]

6 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

At the end of the day, mixing dens is a better experience for the youth, and isn't that why we are all doing this?

 

What's National going to do? Send guys like me out to revoke charters if a boy and girl associate with each other at a Den meeting? 

disagree

BSA programming is based on age and gender appropriate activities

mixing dens whether by age or sex, contradicts the basis of the programming

whats best for the kids is instructing them based on individual sex and age,

I have taught both male and female from toddlers to teens, to be effective they each require a different teaching method, what works for boys doesn't work for girls, and vice/versa

boys require a more hands on experience, more trial by error, with guidance

girls require more instruction verbal and visually

 

 

 

[dfg890]

1 hour ago, Terasec said:

disagree

BSA programming is based on age and gender appropriate activities

mixing dens whether by age or sex, contradicts the basis of the programming

whats best for the kids is instructing them based on individual sex and age,

I have taught both male and female from toddlers to teens, to be effective they each require a different teaching method, what works for boys doesn't work for girls, and vice/versa

boys require a more hands on experience, more trial by error, with guidance

girls require more instruction verbal and visually

 

 

 

Disagree wholeheartedly.  Some girls tend to be more visual learners, some boys tend to be more tactile.  Most people tend to have multiple preferences for different learning styles.  The continued belief that one gender prefers certain learning styles is not born out by recent studies.  And if your experience differs remember that even with years of experience in a certain field, you can't draw broad society wide conclusions on that.

My daughters love to learn by touching and through kinesthetic styles.  My son loves learning things with videos and touching stuff and reading.  Most of the percieved preferences come from cultural influences over generations.  When we stop viewing girls and boys as different and start treating them the same, they end up being more alike than we all were taught to believe.  

I won't say there are no differences, but I would argue that the differences make little difference in the realm of scouting.  Scouting is a very hands on activity and some boys will struggle with that, as will some girls.  I still suck at knots, after all.  Age is a far more differentiating factor then gender (especially in cub scouts), and there is no reason that cub boys and girls can't participate together. In fact, they often do, every day, in their schools.  If you'd like some further reading on the topic of the myth of learning styles:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/ase.1777?referrer_access_token=qE_psfvPHCT_vBQy1CPj7k4keas67K9QMdWULTWMo8P70HNoGhzy1MTV2yMR6AhNiD0MqbjF5yYhRd6iEA83z99Gq2iA9SiskXQJleVncZ_Tz3RqeKppX4BDgPD51LDQvLsrRbFzE3fkUNY0LtEhjw%3D%3D

 

 

[Eagledad]

2 minutes ago, dfg890 said:

Disagree wholeheartedly.  Some girls tend to be more visual learners, some boys tend to be more tactile.  Most people tend to have multiple preferences for different learning styles.  The continued belief that one gender prefers certain learning styles is not born out by recent studies.  And if your experience differs remember that even with years of experience in a certain field, you can't draw broad society wide conclusions on that.

 

I have three grandkids under the age of 3 now. My daughter said the other day that she now sees that even at a few months age, girls are different than boys.

Experience behooves making changes to find maximum performance. Logic dictates doing what works. My experience over the years is the same as Terasec's.

Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but instinct drives consistent human behavior.

Barry 

 

[dfg890]

5 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I have three grandkids under the age of 3 now. My daughter said the other day that she now sees that even at a few months age, girls are different than boys.

Experience behooves making changes to find maximum performance. Logic dictates doing what works. My experience over the years is the same as Terasec's.

Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but instinct drives consistent human behavior.

Barry 

 

And I have 2 girls and a boy, and while I'm not saying differences don't exist, I'm arguing that in the context of cub scouts different ages have significantly larger differences and that the differences are minimal enough given the activities the scouts are participating in that having them together just works better for our pack.  My middle daughter is into math and rock climbing and loves to draw. My oldest is a fervent reader and fan of riding her bike and swimming, and my boy loves to play minecraft(as do the girls), toss frisbees, and perform impromptu karaoke shows.

My expeience differs from yours.  I see them all different, but not necessarily because of their gender.  I think a lot of the 'differences' are culturally reinforced on an unconscious level through exposure to media and the biases of the adults around them.  The more I work to remove those biases, the more they are just individuals.

To reiterate, I don't mean to suggest no differences exist. They do.  I only say that depending on a packs circumstance, co-ed dens may make more sense.  Not always, but that's why I think it should be a choice. I don't think that's an unreasonable position to have.