Irate potential cubmaster

[Devotedautismadhdmom]

I am the Committee Chair for my unit. Background, my unit is 4 years old. The last 15 months, I have worked massive hours restructuring our broken unit. Starting from ground zero. We just got into our new charter. Have a parent interested in being cubmaster. He spend his days googling cub scouts and tgings to do. We have explained, being we are the unit for the 2 low income schools, we do things that require little to no money, aka low income unit. 

I came into last meeting, starting give parents upcoming dates and need to knows. He keeps interrupting me telling me I am wrong and arguing with me. Then he gets up and says I need to leave, I have no business there (my son is a bear), I am not running anything right. I stop him and yell him he needs to meet me upstairs to talk with our COR. He proceeded to verbally attack me, say I am being investigated, my only role is to shut my mouth and do things as he says, etc. I have worked along side our district executive to restart our unit. Had I done anything wrong, they would have not aloud us to just sign up with a new charter, that they were there for. 

The COR informed him that he was not to be doing some of the things he is doing, as at this time, he is not an approved leader. He chose not to sign on the religious principles requirement,  or fill out the background check authorization. We attempted to ask about his previous possession charge and he got more irate. He had the COR shaking, as well as myself with his actions. He then went down and individually spoke to each parent, aside from the ones that has been there the prior year, smearing myself and the COR. 

Myself, 2 veteran DLs, and the COR are not comfortable having our next meeting tomorrow with him there.  

Myself and the COR set up a meeting with our DE, which later he cancelled. Said our committee chair would be calling me the next day. I wasn't happy with that, as he was not in any of the talks with the potential CM, had never met or talked with him. We wanted the conversation between the DE and CM to be discussed. The DE now says he will be out for the week. 

My COR is first, saying he needs to apologize first and foremost to me. Second, we are both not comfortable with his actions in front of children. Also, she is concerned with his possession charge. As am I. We can only take his word, but have no way of knowing if that is still his lifestyle. We are unsure of what to do at this point. My anxiety is up so high about our meeting tomorrow night, not having been able to talk to anyone yet. Do we contact our field services person? He know sone of what is happening, and is the one that helped me get out of our Charter and into a new, along with all the transitions. But haven't had much contact since we got our new home. 

[MattR]

"The possession charge"? Why is he CM if he hasn't passed a background check? That's a non starter.

Your posting is rather confusing so I can just assume this is really bothering you. I do understand. Yes, you need to get the council involved. If the DE doesn't respond then move it up. Call the Council Exec. If you're afraid of this meeting for your safety then cancel it. If you're afraid because of the confrontation then just talk to everyone and make sure you all agree to help each other out. Be brave.

The bottom line is if the CC and CM don't get along then the pack will fail. You're the CC and you decide who the CM is.

[Cleveland Rocks]

You as CC and the COR are both responsible for approving all adult leaders in your unit. Since you're both on the same page that this person should not be your CM, and it sounds like there are some red flags that would pop up on a background check, this should be a short meeting.

You need to let this person know that their services are no longer needed. Inform your DE and unit commissioner of your decision.  But ultimately the decision is all on you. Your council will let you know that this is a matter between you, your chartered organization, and the individual who wants to be your Cubmaster. They still, though, need to be kept in the loop on what is transpiring. The council would get involved only if this application ever made its way to the registrar's desk with all that missing information.

Because this person has not had his application approved by you and the COR, submitted to council, or had a background check passed, he should not be at meetings attempting to perform the duties of a Cubmaster.

His actions alone should disqualify him: he refused to sign the religious principles declaration, refuses to authorize a background check, and I'd be willing to bet he hasn't taken YPT. He needs to be informed that his services are no longer needed.

[HashTagScouts]

If this person refused to sign the items you indicate, the application cannot be sent on to council to process.  Thus, as your COR states, he is not an approved leader.  For the sake of the youth, he should not be allowed to preside over the meeting and present himself as the CM.  The COR has all right to block him from even attending, if they so chose to.  As far as your DE, it isn't up to them- at all.  This is a CO issue.  The DE could be there to be only a voice lent to the COR as the COR is asking this person to leave or explaining why they are not approving them to be their unit leader, but really the De can only say just that the COR made the decision.   It is not council/national that are rejecting them, it is your CO, so the DE is under no obligation to have to be involved.    

Edited January 13, 2019 by HashTagScouts

[ParkMan]

4 hours ago, Cleveland Rocks said:

You as CC and the COR are both responsible for approving all adult leaders in your unit. Since you're both on the same page that this person should not be your CM, and it sounds like there are some red flags that would pop up on a background check, this should be a short meeting.

You need to let this person know that their services are no longer needed. Inform your DE and unit commissioner of your decision.  But ultimately the decision is all on you. Your council will let you know that this is a matter between you, your chartered organization, and the individual who wants to be your Cubmaster. They still, though, need to be kept in the loop on what is transpiring. The council would get involved only if this application ever made its way to the registrar's desk with all that missing information.

Because this person has not had his application approved by you and the COR, submitted to council, or had a background check passed, he should not be at meetings attempting to perform the duties of a Cubmaster.

His actions alone should disqualify him: he refused to sign the religious principles declaration, refuses to authorize a background check, and I'd be willing to bet he hasn't taken YPT. He needs to be informed that his services are no longer needed.

As a former CC & CM, this is 100% correct.

The decision on who is an adult volunteer is up to the CC & COR.  If either of your rejects a volunteer - it's done.  Since you both don't want him to be CM - this is easy - he's not the Cubmaster.  You don't need anyone's permission to reject him - it's your call.

[SSScout]

Well, welcome to the Forums.  What an introduction.  Please warm your electrical self at our virtual campfire.  I hope we can give you some  comfort and good advice. 

 

Amen to all the above.  Not mentioned..... does this person have a Scout in the unit?  Does this Scout have another adult to depend on? Understanding and sympathy is a wonderful trait, but you and your Scout Unit have other concerns. 

If it escalates to this point, your CO may have to go to court to get a "no trespass" order.  

If the person in question refuses to allow the required background check, "assumes" he is the CM because no one else (??) will step up,  bullies his way into position rather than discusses and gains approval,  has not taken YPT,  will not  accept the decision of the CO leadership,  then the No Trespass order may be your only recourse.  I have known this to be necessary.  Make friends with your local constabulary. 

BSA is an authoritarian organization made up primarily of consenting, cooperating volunteers.  Underline cooperating. We accept that authority inherent in our concern for our youth. 

If the OP's  description is accurate (if emotional), then this person has other problems that your Scout Unit has no ability to address.    Good luck to you and your dedication to your youth. 

See you on the trail.

Edited January 14, 2019 by SSScout

[Devotedautismadhdmom]

His girlfriend's son is a tiger. He showed up to a meeting one night, both of them in uniform, application in hands. 

[fred8033]

Great comments so far ...

... I was going to add a comment about pack camp outs and the gentleman not being able to share a tent with his girlfriend's Tiger scout son.  So I re-read the G2SS.  BSA documents have been getting more precise over the last 15 years.  Words that are flexible are intentionally flexible and words that are more specific are more specific for a reason.  The G2SS sometimes says "legal guardian" and other times just says "guardian".  In the sections referring to sharing a tent, it just says "guardian".  So if the mom says XXX is responsible for my son this weekend, do we consider that to be enough to establish "guardian"???   Or do we still apply "legal guardian" (a much more specific statement)?  I've seen this situation in my cub pack and I've discussed occurrences with other packs.  It happens all the time these days. 

[Jameson76]

3 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Great comments so far ...

... I was going to add a comment about pack camp outs and the gentleman not being able to share a tent with his girlfriend's Tiger scout son.  So I re-read the G2SS.  BSA documents have been getting more precise over the last 15 years.  Words that are flexible are intentionally flexible and words that are more specific are more specific for a reason.  The G2SS sometimes says "legal guardian" and other times just says "guardian".  In the sections referring to sharing a tent, it just says "guardian".  So if the mom says XXX is responsible for my son this weekend, do we consider that to be enough to establish "guardian"???   Or do we still apply "legal guardian" (a much more specific statement)?  I've seen this situation in my cub pack and I've discussed occurrences with other packs.  It happens all the time these days. 

On the guardian question, I am not a lawyer (though I did watch 12 Angry Men the other night) the only definition seems to imply someone who is legally responsible for someone who is unable to mange their affairs.  Agree that if the wizards in Dallas had put the word "legal" in front of guardian, would be much clearer.  I know for webelos visitation we have had older brothers, grandparents, etc accompany visiting Web II scouts.  If another parent brings 2 Web's for a visit (their son and another Web) we typically will request that the young ones have their own tent.

To get back on topic, he is not the CM if the CO/COR/CC do not approve and endorse.  End of story.

[AnotherDad]

I have noticed my own tendency to want to change how things are done or be critical of some of the other scout leaders. When I completed my training and recognized just how far my pack had deviated from recommended practice, the urge to point all of this out to the other leaders began to strengthen. Then I completed some face-to-face training and had the chance to hear from other leaders who were doing great things and again I had the urge to tell my CM about how everyone else was doing things and suggest that we should try some of them. It takes a conscious effort not to act on these thoughts. I suspect this individual (potential CM) has never been a leader of other volunteers and doesn't know that scorched earth strategies take years to recover from and the amount of work he is taking on is tenfold. If he ever becomes a leader (I hope not), he will start to berate the parents and other volunteers for not doing things his way. As you describe it, I am not sure this situation is recoverable. In the end, the decisions should be centered around what is in the best interest of the kids, including the child he is bringing to the meetings.  Happy volunteers (adult leaders) are a necessary part of this program. So please consider what it will take to keep the most number of these adult leaders happy in the long run. This is usually the same decisions that are in the best interest of the most number of kids. 

[Eagledad]

2 hours ago, AnotherDad said:

I have noticed my own tendency to want to change how things are done or be critical of some of the other scout leaders. When I completed my training and recognized just how far my pack had deviated from recommended practice, the urge to point all of this out to the other leaders began to strengthen. Then I completed some face-to-face training and had the chance to hear from other leaders who were doing great things and again I had the urge to tell my CM about how everyone else was doing things and suggest that we should try some of them. It takes a conscious effort not to act on these thoughts. I suspect this individual (potential CM) has never been a leader of other volunteers and doesn't know that scorched earth strategies take years to recover from and the amount of work he is taking on is tenfold. If he ever becomes a leader (I hope not), he will start to berate the parents and other volunteers for not doing things his way. As you describe it, I am not sure this situation is recoverable. In the end, the decisions should be centered around what is in the best interest of the kids, including the child he is bringing to the meetings.  Happy volunteers (adult leaders) are a necessary part of this program. So please consider what it will take to keep the most number of these adult leaders happy in the long run. This is usually the same decisions that are in the best interest of the most number of kids. 

Excellent post AnotherDad. Good leaders have vision and a plan for driving the program toward that vision. But, a successful program includes excited parents and leaders. If the parents are happy, their sons are happy. Look at any Pack with consistent high Webelos Crossovers, and you will see a program with happy adults.

When I started as a CM, our Tiger dropout rate was horrible and our Webelos crossover rate was less than 50%. Three years later, the crossover rate for both age groups was 98% . All we did was make a few changes to make the program easier and more fun for the adults, not the scouts.

Barry

[Devotedautismadhdmom]

Thank you all for your advise. Wlmy COR and I brought in a commissioner, paraprofessional and a gentleman that holds many hats to our meeting. We were going to have a sit down meeting after the den meeting. The CM asked them why they were there.  So he then went to his friends and told them to stay, in front of our pack committee and told them they can go. We just went with the additional people there, no questions asked (meanwhile my phone blowing up from the Committee as to why they were told to leave).  The CM immediately said ok let's get tgis started, here is what we are here to discuss. And started his 2 page bullet points. Each of which, was responded with, tgis is already stated in the bylaws you ALL signed off on at signup and again once we got in our new charter organization. He got done, said this meeting is over I'm late for pool league. We weren't able to bring up anytging, which some things, the others didn't need to hear. After a stressful sleepless night, I reached out to one of the attendees and said tgat personally can't sign off on his application, because I do not have the right in me that appears to continue. I felt like he wishes to try to run 100% and change the way our committee runs tgings, and I won't be bullied trying to run committee meetings. He doesn't see the fact that money has to come from somewhere. And the schools we pull from, are the low income schools. Families don't have money to constantly pull from their pockets. His own, only have scraped by on fundraisers to pay for 1 recharter, pack pays for adults. I proposed we ask his GF, the scouts mom, to step in as CM, as she has a level head and understands what I am saying. Those that came from the office felt it was a good meeting. Yes, there were things answered, but not solved as far as his role. Which was the point. They feel I don't want to let go of anything, as I spent the last year with the Committee rebuilding and starting from scratch. Believe me, I want nothing more than to go back to just being a mom at the den meetings and helping and enjoying my son's venture! I have missed so much in the last year! As a cc, at a pack meeting, that's all I should be, according to the job description. I should only be running the Committee meetings, and helping with the planning and paperwork, not directly with the scouts. Isn't that correct? During this restruture, 5 months ago, my son was diagnosed with multiple disabilities. He needs scouting now more than ever! But also needs his mom there with him. Myself, I was also diagnosed at the same time with a muscular skeletal illness,t that this whole situation this past week, has put me in a lot of pain. Right now, more than ever, I need to decrease my load, but not for what I worked for, to be torn up, kids hopes to get up doing something to only be crushed because there is no money. When I said I can't sign off on his, but if they choose they want him to be CM, I said I will have to take my son and we will move to another unit, simply because I can't do they fight, mentally, with him. But I was told I am now the one in the wrong. I think it is my time to step out and wish them luck. I simply wanted a good cubmaster that will take on the proper role of running the pack and den meetings, the hands on with the scouts. As I had been told many times at the roundtables, CM = fun, deal directly with scouts, CC=paperwork, planning and deal with adults. All 16 months of restructure, my DE and FS that have been working with me have told our committee, "it's your pack, follow the guidelines to get things done, how you run your meetings and events, is your choice".   I tried is all I can say. 

Thank you for listening and sorry for my ramble. 

[Devotedautismadhdmom]

Sidenote, in the 4 years, in 5th now, tgis has been a unit, tgis is the most scouts it has had and held from fall registrations to recharter with no drop outs. But was told I have run it into the ground, people are leaving because of how I have run the meetings. But we've lost no one. And parents have left meetings activities and events telling and thanking me for the great time the kids are having. 

[qwazse]

@Devotedautismadhdmom, nothing worth doing is easy. Hang in there.

You can assert that you didn't have a committee meeting as soon as the committee was dismissed.

If you and the COR won't sign his application he's not CM (or DL or any other adult leader in your unit). Period.

The only way that changes, is if the CO wants a different COR and CC. Obviously that will be the case if you leave.

It is human nature to make up facts. So, when this CM says people are leaving, pull out your roster and ask, "Name them, please."

[69RoadRunner]

As others have said, he isn't the CM.  Perhaps I missed it, but do you have someone you want to be CM, is qualified and willing to do the job?

I would send him an email explaining to him the several reasons why he is NOT CM.  Then have your meetings without inviting him.

If this is not going to work, then it might be time to move on as you said. It takes courage to stand and fight, but you might need to decide this battle is not one for you and your son.  You can't fight it alone.  If you don't have support in the pack, then move on.

I wish you well.