Troop adding/changing requirements for Eagle project

[FireStone]

If this sticks and the SM gets his way, make sure to remind him when it's time for a Court of Honor that the troop doesn't group things together, and he needs to be present at three different CoHs on 3 different dates/times/places.

😏

[scotteg83]

21 minutes ago, FireStone said:

If this sticks and the SM gets his way, make sure to remind him when it's time for a Court of Honor that the troop doesn't group things together, and he needs to be present at three different CoHs on 3 different dates/times/places.

😏

Our troops Eagle COH are for only Eagles and nobody else.  So that doesn't really work as a comeback

[Carbenez]

There shouldn't have to be any "comebacks" necessary other than....show me in the Guide To Advancement where is says 2 Scouts are prohibited from working on different projects at the same facility on the same day. 

Anything else is a made-up requirement.  

This guy has also been making kids finish their project plan (not the proposal, the PLAN) before he "allows" them to start working on their project. Another made up requirement in direct opposition to current rules.

 

[scotteg83]

7 minutes ago, Carbenez said:

There shouldn't have to be any "comebacks" necessary other than....show me in the Guide To Advancement where is says 2 Scouts are prohibited from working on different projects at the same facility on the same day. 

Anything else is a made-up requirement.  

This guy has also been making kids finish their project plan (not the proposal, the PLAN) before he "allows" them to start working on their project. Another made up requirement in direct opposition to current rules.

 

Talk to your SM, if that doesn't work, talk to the CC.  If that doesn't work, talk to the COR.  If none of that works, then reach out to your DE or District Advancement Coordinator

[PACAN]

What are the three different projects?  Interesting that three scouts from three troops are converging at the same place and same time.

A sponsor can dictate when a work day takes place.  Of course if the scout is communicating with his sponsor he will know this well in advance.

If the SM has some legitimate reasons he should say what they are and not make blanket statements.  Of course if your son has been in this troop for awhile, this should surprise no one.

[PACAN]

Completing the Project Plan before a scout starts is an outstanding idea.  Read the verbiage on the Project Plan cover sheet.  Also the last section in the PP is for the coach to review the plan and see that the scout is ready to execute.  The information paper given the sponsor speaks to the sponsor seeing the PP before execution as well.  This is to ensure there are no surprises or misunderstandings between them.

[HashTagScouts]

2 hours ago, PACAN said:

Completing the Project Plan before a scout starts is an outstanding idea.  Read the verbiage on the Project Plan cover sheet.  Also the last section in the PP is for the coach to review the plan and see that the scout is ready to execute.  The information paper given the sponsor speaks to the sponsor seeing the PP before execution as well.  This is to ensure there are no surprises or misunderstandings between them.

I agree- I have never met an Eagle candidate that didn't have to make adjustments to their plan once they started the project.  Having them take a stab at it beforehand can be the best tool to mentor them on what may become an issue, if done as is, when they begin work.

[David CO]

8 hours ago, Carbenez said:

The representative of the Beneficiary that we are dealing with has 3 sons that are Eagle Scouts, has sat on Eagle boards....and thinks our SM is "out of his mind."

That's a bit harsh.  I don't care who he is.  If he spoke about my Scoutmaster in that manner, I think I might have quietly informed him that the boys in my unit will not be doing any more projects for that beneficiary.  Never disrespect the Scoutmaster.

 

[The Latin Scot]

Well, the cold facts of this case are:

1. No unit leader nor committee may add, nor take away from, the requirements, as written exactly in the Boy Scout Handbook and the Eagle Scout application.

2. There are absolutely no prohibitions on multiple projects being conducted at the same place for the same beneficiary as long as each is managed entirely and only by each respective Scout (I know this for a fact because we just had two boys do their projects on opposite sides of the same street on the same day for our city, and I read through the requirements a dozen times to be sure it was permissible).

3. If you would like to move forward as planned, which I suggest you do, simply move up to your District Advancement Chair for approval, and if not, your District Executive. Under no circumstances should you bend to any leader imposing false prohibitions on these boys' efforts.

4. In all things, be respectful and courteous, and as has been noted, inform the Scoutmaster that the situation has already been taken care of. If he complains or makes demands, simply smile and say Thank you, the situation has been taken care of. Do not give him any room to argue, and if you must, just keep repeating it, but sincerely and kindly. If it's been taken care of under the proper authorities, it's been taken care of. There is nothing the Scoutmaster can do to impede you at this point in the game.

All the best to you.

Edited January 5, 2019 by The Latin Scot

[Carbenez]

12 hours ago, PACAN said:

Completing the Project Plan before a scout starts is an outstanding idea.  Read the verbiage on the Project Plan cover sheet.  Also the last section in the PP is for the coach to review the plan and see that the scout is ready to execute.  The information paper given the sponsor speaks to the sponsor seeing the PP before execution as well.  This is to ensure there are no surprises or misunderstandings between them.

I agree its essential....what I DON'T agree with now that I know the rules is that the SM requires the Scouts to have him APPROVE the project plan.... On the project plan cover sheet, it states very clearly that plan is not "approved or signed."  My oldest son, who just finished his Eagle project, went through a lengthy meeting with the SM and the previous SM where they demanded to see the Project Plan and grilled him about it for nearly 2 hours.  They circled typos, and made him re-write it before they would "allow" him to start working.

While I understand they are trying to be helpful.... this is way outside the rules. These guys were debating the design of the project which was a 22 foot long bridge over a creek (my son had gotten help from his grandfather who is an architect and spent several hours with a family friend who is a civil engineer). They even got into debating what color he should paint it, what kind of screws and nails should be used.... 

[PACAN]

Carbenz....you shifted gears from your original post about three project at the same date to the SM requiring his approval for the Project Plan before execution.  Even though the Project Plan is not "approved" the sponsor can stop (disapprove) the project if they don't think the scout has all the bases covered.

The grilling of a scout for hours is why the current process was started as scouts were giving up after multiple and unnecessary trivial changes were being required before signatures.

[SSF]

I'm sorry that your son is in this situation.

One of the most unjust and ridiculous aspects of the BSA is the fact that Scoutmasters, and/or units, that choose to violate established BSA policies on advancement, face no real opposition from the BSA.

I don't know of a single case of a Scoutmaster ever being removed from his position for adding requirements.

While he is clearly in the wrong, this SM can decide to not grant your son his scoutmaster conference for Eagle, not sign his completed Eagle project workbook and/or not sign his completed Eagle application; any one of which would result in your son not being able to earn the rank of Eagle Scout.

If you approach the council for assistance, or report the SM for violating the GTA, then they would most likely involve the Unit Commissioner in some way to try to mend things, but even then the SM could still flatly decide that he's just not going to support your son's advancement to Eagle, in which case the only other options would be either transferring to a different troop or requesting an Eagle Board of Review Under Disputed Circumstances.

My advice to you, for your son's sake, would be to tread lightly with this Scoutmaster and to encourage your son to see if the beneficiary would allow the project to be done on a different day.

 

 

 

[Carbenez]

Latest update... My son worked with the beneficiary to change the date so that my son will be the only scout working on his project on a given date.  After 4 hours of meetings, the SM is still refusing to sign off on the proposal even though he admits it passes all the tests. He even stated that multiple times in the meeting. The reason he is refusing to sign off is he wants the proposal re-typed with his latest revisions and grammatical corrections ( use this word instead of this word, add a semi-colon here...).  After my son spent 2 hours at the local Lowe's obtaining all the item numbers and prices so that he could provide a COMPLETE pricing sheet for the project, another sticking point with the SM was that he didn't ITEMIZE the estimate for providing lunch for the volunteers!!! "What kind of sandwiches? What kind of chips? What drinks will you have? You need to provide more detail for the Eagle Board."  He even grilled the kid on what types of screws were being used in the project, citing that the previous SM had a preference for "screws with star heads, so you'd better use those or he's going to give you a hard time."  What does the RETIRED SM''s screw preference HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING????  The project beneficiary has provided a design that THEY desire.... and this SM spent a good 20 minutes expressing his opinions on the design. 

So to date, we have had 2 meetings that have lasted nearly 4 hours in total....my son conferred with the beneficiary and got the dates of the project changed (the beneficiary is none too pleased mind you)...My son re-typed his proposal with all the corrections requested by the SM in the first meeting...my son has provided detail over and above what is required in the proposal form and the SM admits the project passes all the tests. And yet....my son is without signatures because....and this is a quote....."Grammar is a big part of the Eagle Scout Project."  And - "this is the way our Troop does it!! We've always done it this way, and we can make our own policies and procedures when it comes to approval."  And - "the beneficiary shouldn't be upset - they should be happy that I'm such a stickler and so thorough."  The beneficiary should be happy about the SM's arguments over semantics pushing completion of their project back 4-6 weeks? Really?

Is this normal? Am I out of bounds being upset with this guy?  I even discussed section 9.0.2.7 of the Guide to Advancement with him...."The candidate shall not be required to submit more than is described there, or more than is necessary to establish that a project can meet the above tests....A thorough review should generate numerous suggestions, cautions, and perhaps concerns (see “What an Eagle Scout Candidate Should Expect,” 9.0.2.1). The Scout should be encouraged to write these down and take them seriously. When the reviewer is satisfied the five tests above can be met, then approval is granted. It is important to be as considerate of an Eagle Scout candidate’s time as we expect him to be of ours. He is probably just as busy. Every attempt should be made to complete the approval process in one meeting."  At this point, his answer became "this is how I do it, and you have to have my signature - and I'm not signing."  

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Carbenez

[RememberSchiff]

Have you talked to SM's of other nearby troops? 

 

[bsaggcmom]

Run Forest Run!!  Get to a new troop if you can. This SM is out of control and will continue to be an obstacle to your son's advancement just because he can be.

We had the same issue with my son's SM in troop #2. He was not pleased the son was 13 and starting an Eagle project. No scout in his troop deserved Eagle before their 18th birthday. In troop 2 no scout had a an EBOR until after they turned 18. And he wasn't going to change his stance. My son did everything this man demanded and the SM just kept adding to the demands because he could. He delayed my son for 6 months, when I threatened an intervention with the district advancement chair he relented and signed the proposal. The SM interference didn't stop with the proposal. He tried to shut down both of my son's work days on the project itself. First shutdown was because most of the scouts couldn't help on first work day, MLK Day, cuz their school was in session and my son's school was off. The school wanted the work done that day  for obvious reasons. Son had several friends from school to help him all were Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts. Then he said it couldn't go cuz he couldn't be there, and on and on. It wasn't until the school principal called him and said she'd turn him into council for abuse of power that he relented this time.

Second work day SM tired to shut it down cuz it was rainy and cold. Then he tried that son and school hadn't cleared the site with MissDig for buried wires, there was already a playscape in place there with deep footings. Then he tried to argue about cement mixing procedures. This time we had a friend that was on the district advancement team for the neighboring district working with the group. He pulled the SM aside and put him in his place. Project complete. SM threatened that he'd never give a now 14 year old an SMC for Eagle, especially after how he was treated during the project. So troop #3 here we were.

This man will never change. So as stated earlier. RUN, RUN FAST. 

Side note - Just saw on Facebook that 2 boys from troop 2 just made Eagle, they turned 18 in mid fall. They were college freshmen when their projects and completed EBORs 60 days after 18th b-days. Somethings never change. The scouts are the same age as my son.